Is Bach a Great Composer?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Nor should we forget the 19th-century composer who was the agent for resurrecting the St Matthew Passion:  Mendelssohn.

Certainly - I edited my post while yours was in transit, to add a couple of more observations.

[Harry]

It is impossible to hold a rational conversation with someone who thinks only two composers are worth listening to.

That is certainly a limiting factor, but at least he can say that he knew those composers very well?

[Rod Corkin]

Completely wrong, Rod. The high regard in which Bach is held is due primarily to the response of 19th-century composers - Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms, others. Bach's reputation was sealed well before "academics" had any say in it.

I think not, I stated elsewhere from the late 19thC onwards the revised 'consensus' re Bach developed. But even amongst the Romantics Bach was not universally regarded as a genius. There was still opposition to this notion even then. The opinions of the names you mention were not responsible for the status of Bach in the 20thC because they were all dead! Beethoven's opinion of Handel did not stop him being all but forgotten by the mid 20thC. The notion of Bach's supremacy over all other composers is largely a 20thC phenomenon.

[Rod Corkin]

It is impossible to hold a rational conversation with someone who thinks only two composers are worth listening to.

Is this your escape clause when the chips are down Sf? I have been totally rational, deal with it.

[(poco) Sforzando]

That is certainly a limiting factor, but at least he can say that he knew those composers very well?

Hee.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I think not, I stated elsewhere from the late 19thC onwards the revised 'consensus' re Bach developed. But even amongst the Romantics Bach was not universally regarded as a genius. There was still opposition to this notion even then. The opinions of the names you mention were not responsible for the status of Bach in the 20thC because they were all dead! Beethoven's opinion of Handel did not stop him being all but forgotten by the mid 20thC. The notion of Bach's supremacy over all other composers is largely a 20thC phenomenon.

Well yes of course his reputation grew and grew, and the idea of a fixed canon of great music is something that started to emerge only in the early 19th century, when musicians began to take more interest in preserving music of the past. But whether there was opposition to Bach at first (and I would be interested in your support for this), the foundation for his reputation was certainly laid by the mid 19th century. That has been well-established by the posts provided above.

As for Handel, he was certainly undervalued, and the pre-eminence of That One Piece led to a distorted sense of his achievement. Fortunately that is being rectified today. None of that makes Bach any less great a composer. Music is not like an Olympics event where only one composer can be given a gold medal.

[Saul]

It is impossible to hold a rational conversation with someone who thinks only two composers are worth listening to.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Is this your escape clause when the chips are down Sf? I have been totally rational, deal with it.

The notion that only two composers are worth listening to, with all others falling miserably short, is in my opinion completely irrational.

Even Paulb has 15 composers on his list. Think of it, Rod! That's 15 to your 2 - 7 1/2 times the number of composers to hear.

Deal with it. 

[Josquin des Prez]

I haven't presented any arguments in this topic about why I believe Handel is greater than Bach! All I have said is that my change in opinion re Handel was influenced by Beethoven's own opinion of Handel. I have also mention the 'Bach cult' that has developed, that's about it I think.

Trying to discredit Bach by arguing his reputation is the result of some sort of ongoing conspiracy is pretty much a way to say Handel is the superior composer, and that we are all but a bunch of sheepish boors too stupid and fearful to fight against the status quo and therefore unable to see the truth. Your entire argument in a nutshell.

[Josquin des Prez]

The opinions of the names you mention were not responsible for the status of Bach in the 20thC because they were all dead!

Not to burst your bubble but those opinions were written down before those composers croaked. And just to point out on the obvious double standard here, i'd like to mention that Beethoven is dead too!

[bhodges]

The notion that only two composers are worth listening to, with all others falling miserably short, is in my opinion completely irrational.

I totally agree.  It is, of course, anyone's right to listen to as much (or in this case, as little) as he or she chooses, but listening over and over to just two composers seems like being locked inside a very tiny room, while outside, a technicolor universe awaits.

--Bruce

[Don]

Trying to discredit Bach by arguing his reputation is the result of some sort of ongoing conspiracy is pretty much a way to say Handel is the superior composer, and that we are all but a bunch of sheepish boors too stupid and fearful to fight against the status quo and therefore unable to see the truth. Your entire argument in a nutshell.

Actually, the Corkster doesn't present any arguments of merit.  The best he seems to come up with involves the opinions of others such as Beethoven; the Corkster can't even reach his own conclusions.

I suppose we simply have a situation here that the Corkster can't handle his perception that Bach's reputation is greater than Handel's.

[Chaszz]

Which academics, Rod? I would guess, without having any special knowledge of the matter, that the number of academics who have been busy writing about Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, Brahms and others is comparable to the number of academics who have been lauding Bach as the greatest composer. Perhaps more, in each case, because I think the trinity of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart as the three greatest composers is pretty widely ascribed to by academics as well as other interested parties. And most academics would tread very gently before raising Bach above the other two.* In any case, how about some hard evidence - names, books, or whatever - for this claim that academics have pushed and made Bach's reputation as the supreme composer???

Brahms said the two most important events of his lifetime were the unification of Germany and the publication of Bach's 'complete' works (I use quotes because of course they were not really 'complete' in that edition). This is well before the 20th century, but an example of the esteem the composer was held in by that time by composers and musicians, not just academics. Mendelsohn, who started the Bach revival, was a working composer and conductor, not an academic. Many of the people who spread additional enthusiasm for Bach in the 20th century were composers and musicians also - Pablo Casals, Albert Schweitzer**, Wanda Landowska, E. Power Biggs, Andres Segovia, Glenn Gould, Alexander Schneider, Murray Perhaia and others were and are interpreters who based very popular 20th century careers largely on playing Bach, and there were more than academics among the large crowds who went to their concerts or bought their records. Among composers he was revered by Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Reger, Webern, Berg, and many others. In my own misspent youth in the fifties and sixties, Bach was very popular among CM listeners and we had no academic guidance to influence us - mainly each other and some of the performers listed above.

There's no doubt Handel was unjustly neglected, but as a prior poster says, that's being corrected now. No major opera house mounts a season anymore without at lest one of his operas in the schedule, and the reviews laud the composer. This doesn't harm Bach.

Once again, how about some hard evidence - names - for this academic movement to enshrine Bach? And additionally that this movement has been more influential than the many musicians of all kinds - performers, composers and conductors, who have also toiled in Bach's vineyard?

* This is not MY preferred trinity or rating. Only what I see to be a widespread consensus.
** Schweitzer, of course, left performing to become a missionary and humanitarian.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I totally agree.  It is, of course, anyone's right to listen to as much (or in this case, as little) as he or she chooses, but listening over and over to just two composers seems like being locked inside a very tiny room, while outside, a technicolor universe awaits.

--Bruce

"Mind-forged manacles," as Blake put it.

[bhodges]

"Mind-forged manacles," as Blake put it.

Yep, very well put.  I can't imagine why anyone would willingly submit to being so shackled.

--Bruce

[(poco) Sforzando]

Actually, the Corkster doesn't present any arguments of merit.  The best he seems to come up with involves the opinions of others such as Beethoven; the Corkster can't even reach his own conclusions.

I suppose we simply have a situation here that the Corkster can't handle his perception that Bach's reputation is greater than Handel's.

This is yet another example of what, in literary circles, Harold Bloom calls "the School of Resentment": i.e., the attitude that somehow, for reasons of "conspiracy" or "brainwashing" or such, the culture of the West as generally understood is a direct affront to one's personal pride. In literary circles this often takes the form of denigrating Shakespeare and Dante in favor of the latest "relevant" black, or female, or gay writers. But we see it everywhere in classical music too, and from a number of posters on this forum - whether they feel the accepted canon has ipso facto slighted Pettersson, or Elgar, or Joachim Raff, or women composers, or Polish masters, or the composer of Messiah. Take your pick, every Resenter has his favorite candidates. And as for the rest of us: in the Resenters' minds all we like sheep have gone astray; whereas in truth it is the Resenters who have turnéd every one to his own way.  

[(poco) Sforzando]

Many of the people who spread additional enthusiasm for Bach in the 20th century were composers and musicians also - Pablo Casals, Albert Schweitzer**, Wanda Landowska, E. Power Biggs, Andres Segovia, Glenn Gould, Alexander Schneider, Murray Perhaia and others were and are interpreters who based very popular 20th century careers largely on playing Bach, and there were more than academics among the large crowds who went to their concerts or bought their records.

That is a crucial point, especially in an era were so few amateurs (in the best sense) are capable of playing music for themselves. To a very important degree, it is performers who determine what music survives, as they are the people who must spend long hours in practice rooms mastering the music that the rest of the world hears.

[karlhenning]

Brahms said the two most important events of his lifetime were the unification of Germany and the publication of Bach's 'complete' works (I use quotes because of course they were not really 'complete' in that edition). This is well before the 20th century, but an example of the esteem the composer was held in by that time by composers and musicians, not just academics. Mendelsohn, who started the Bach revival, was a working composer and conductor, not an academic. Many of the people who spread additional enthusiasm for Bach in the 20th century were composers and musicians also - Pablo Casals, Albert Schweitzer**, Wanda Landowska, E. Power Biggs, Andres Segovia, Glenn Gould, Alexander Schneider, Murray Perhaia and others were and are interpreters who based very popular 20th century careers largely on playing Bach, and there were more than academics among the large crowds who went to their concerts or bought their records. Among composers he was revered by Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Reger, Webern, Berg, and many others.

Tossers! 

(j/k, of course)

Just as an appendix, it was witnessing performance(s) of the WTC which most directly inspired Shostakovich to compose his own massive set of Preludes & Fugues, Opus 87.

[karlhenning]

Of course, it is rumored that it was Handel's Water Music which was the inspiration for the Song to the Timely Completion of the Dnepopetrovsk Hydroelectric Station.

[ChamberNut]

Rod, time for you to get a Handel on things and return Bach to reality.