Is Bach a Great Composer?

[karlhenning]

but maybe even moreso a  Vivaldian influence on Mozart.

Glad to see you haven't lost your flair for science-fiction, Paul! 

[ChamberNut]

I may explore some Handel, as the face looks interesting.

Well, there it is.   

[(poco) Sforzando]

You think me [grammar] of all people is unaware of Beethoven's association with Bach? But Beethoven never rated Bach the supreme composer he is rated today (!), as is well known Beethoven reserved that honour for Handel. Even if Beethoven had become familiar with Bach's 'lost' music I doubt he would have changed his preference, because the particular things present in Handel that Beethoven was so impressed by are virtually non-existent in Bach's output.

Nicht Bach, sondern Ozean. - LvB
For Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived. - LvB

Yes, of course. But to take either of these ad hoc statements as some kind of definitive evaluation on Beethoven's part graven in stone, is IMNSHO grasping at straws. I count both statements as expressing an extremely high regard for both composers, on the level of "which one is my favorite? the one I'm listening to now!"

[karlhenning]

Well, there it is.   

You see? We little realize what may inform the Divine Revelation theory of Musicology! 

[bassio]

No, I don't remember these two ever meeting.  While yet a child prodigy beyond trotted around, Mozart met JC Bach in London.  Don't know that 'Old Bach's' music was at all part of any conversation they had.  'The London Bach's' piano concertos, though, made an important impression on young Mozart.

I think that it was the Imperial librarian, Baron von Swieten, who introduced Mozart to 'Old Bach'.

Thanks karl. So the info I posted in my first comment was the correct one. Thanks for the confirmation. Again when it takes someone like Van Sweiten to introduce Mozart himself to Bach suggest that Bach was not "half of" a cult even years after his death.

It is very interesting that CPE Bach had the most impression in his day esp. on the young Mozart who admired him so much (although, according to karl here may have never met him) while the "old man" was never mentioned.

But Beethoven never rated Bach the supreme composer he is rated today

Again this is something worth discussin Rod. Do you have some info to confirm? (given Beethoven was taught on his WTC, also on his death they discovered some manuscripts of Bach's works. Also according to Czerny, Beethoven used to play the WTC.. he even published an edition with his master's performance indications.

Direct quotes from the man himself will certainly solve this mystery? And how do you explain the return to complex polyphony in Beethoven's later works and his composing more fugues and incorporating them in his sonatas for example. Can we not conclude this is Bach's influence?

I feel there is more a  *Bachian presence* in Mozart than in Beethoven. 

Interesting! also deserves thread of its own

[(poco) Sforzando]

No, I don't remember these two ever meeting.  While yet a child prodigy beyond trotted around, Mozart met JC Bach in London.  Don't know that 'Old Bach's' music was at all part of any conversation they had.  'The London Bach's' piano concertos, though, made an important impression on young Mozart.

Yes, and JC was writing distinctly in the newer rococo/gallant style, and probably saw his dad's music as old hat.

[Rod Corkin]

While of historical interest, even you must understand that this does not mean anything like that Handel is therefore a "greater" composer than Bach.

Well Beethoven thought just that, he was unequivocal about Handel's supreme 'greatness' amongst composers. Maybe you think the opinion of someone like Beethoven is of mere historical interest but it was this opinion that made me take Handel more seriously in the first place, because before this I had long presumed Handel was just a one hit wonder like most other people at that time. I was wrong, Beethoven was right.

[karlhenning]

But Beethoven never rated Bach the supreme composer he is rated today

Nicht Bach, sondern Ozean. - LvB

Artfully, tastefully done!

[karlhenning]

Well Beethoven thought just that

As Sforzando points out, Beethoven's thought doesn't map onto this neat plan of yours.

[bassio]

Nicht Bach, sondern Ozean. - LvB

Artfully, tastefully done!

Exactly. Never knew that. Sforzando you've made my day.

[Rod Corkin]

As Sforzando points out, Beethoven's thought doesn't map onto this neat plan of yours.

Beethoven said a number of nice things about Bach that haven't been mentioned here as of yet! I did not deny Beethoven's appreciation of Bach, but Beethoven's undisputable placing of Handel above all is totally at odds with popular academic thinking for most of the 20th Century and today. This you cannot deny. Before he developed an interest in Handel he stated Mozart was his favourite, never have I read an quotation where Bach is given this elevated status.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Beethoven said a number of nice things about Bach that haven't been mentioned here as of yet! I did not deny Beethoven's appreciation of Bach, but Beethoven's undisputable placing of Handel above all is totally at odds with popular academic thinking for most of the 20th Century and today. This you cannot deny. Before he developed an interest in Handel he stated Mozart was his favourite, never have I read an quotation where Bach is given this elevated status.

He was not making definitive statements on oath. And even if he was, his judgment does not obligate us to share in it.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Exactly. Never knew that. Sforzando you've made my day.

Sorry, after checking I saw I misquoted from memory:
"Nicht Bach, sondern Meer sein!"

This will no doubt fuel Corkin's fire, as it proves Beethoven did not rate Bach on the level of an ocean, but only a sea, which is of course a smaller body of water.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Playing and studying Bach convinces us that we are all numskulls.

Ooh, there's so much I could do with that one . . . . 

[bhodges]

In the same vein as James's quotes, I will add that among my friends who are either musicians and/or composers, most of whom play a lot of contemporary music, the name that comes up with startling regularity as a favorite is Bach. 

Personally, I don't listen to much Bach these days as I used to, only because other composers now tug more strongly, but that is strictly a personal preference.  I would include him in a list of "great" composers in an instant.  And while no one is "required" to acknowledge his greatness, I think arguing otherwise is placing one's self at the bottom of a very steep incline.

--Bruce

[Chaszz]

Well of course when considering Bach Beethoven did not have even an appreciable small fraction of the number of compositions he had from Handel. Bach's purposely adapted style had gone out of fashion before his own death, while Handel's more vertical style was more in accord with the tastes of the Classical era, and much more of his music survived to Beethoven's time. Very little of Bach was extant in 1800 or 1810. Beethoven had nothing to go by except the WTC and a few other pieces. Next to this he had as a gift Handel's complete works, which I believe (I may be wrong) was what elicited his comment that Handel was the greatest composer. Had Beethoven also known only the B Minor Mass, not to mention Bach's large corpus of other later rediscovered works, it is reasonable to suppose his admiration may have increased. Bach's most intense music, emotionally, is his church music, and of this Beethoven may have known nothing at all.

For these reasons Beethoven's relative estimates of Handel and Bach cannot be taken at face value in any meaningful way.

 

[karlhenning]

You don't suppose this is going to change the Corkster's mind?  It snapped shut some little time ago . . . .

[Ephemerid]

The immortal god of harmony. [of Bach]
BEETHOVEN

Just in case anyone missed that, let me repeat that:

The immortal GOD of harmony. [of Bach]   0:)

[Norbeone]

Arguing for the greatness of Bach is like arguing for the validity of the theory of evolution.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well of course when considering Bach Beethoven did not have even an appreciable small fraction of the number of compositions he had from Handel. Bach's purposely adapted style had gone out of fashion before his own death, while Handel's more vertical style was more in accord with the tastes of the Classical era, and much more of his music survived to Beethoven's time. Very little of Bach was extant in 1800 or 1810. Beethoven had nothing to go by except the WTC and a few other pieces. Next to this he had as a gift Handel's complete works, which I believe (I may be wrong) was what elicited his comment that Handel was the greatest composer. Had Beethoven also known only the B Minor Mass, not to mention Bach's large corpus of other later rediscovered works, it is reasonable to suppose his admiration may have increased. Bach's most intense music, emotionally, is his church music, and of this Beethoven may have known nothing at all.

For these reasons Beethoven's relative estimates of Handel and Bach cannot be taken at face value in any meaningful way.

Thanks for the illuminating and useful comment. There is, certainly, some influence of Handel in some of Beethoven - Die Weihe des Hauses is often cited - but there is influence of Bach as well in the late period, as Beethoven became more and more interested in fugal procedures; and surely the fugues of the Hammerklavier sonata, C# minor quartet, Grosse Fuge, and the two in the Missa owe next to nothing to Handel, but in their intellectual knottiness are far closer in spirit to Bach.

The works of Bach that were best-known after his death were the keyboard works, with the cantatas falling by the wayside as they were no longer used in services. Add to this the general spottiness in disseminating and publishing music, and the general taste for new music as opposed to keeping alive a standard canon. (Even the gift of Handel's works in 40 volumes was probably far from complete.) Nonetheless, Beethoven's interest in Bach remained strong in later life; I distinctly recall a letter where he writes to his publisher asking for a score to the B minor mass, a bit of the Crucifixus being quoted in the letter.