Barenboim's German interview

[Saul]

Im sure he speaks lots of nonsense....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUf_LHJ2cxQ&feature=related

[knight66]

Are you?

[Saul]

Are you?

Listen to the interview and you tell me ... he sticks up to the "palestinians" like he is some kind of an Arab, while at the same time he blames Israel for problems, I'm sure that you didnt forget that he still is an Israeli citizen and a Jew.

So from the very little German that I understand I hear lots of sticking up to the arabs, and for me that's "Nonsense", Knight.

[MishaK]

Are you?

He wouldn't be Saul if he wouldn't judge things without even speaking the language.

Listen to the interview and you tell me ... he sticks up to the "palestinians" like he is some kind of an Arab, while at the same time he blames Israel for problems, I'm sure that you didnt forget that he still is an Israeli citizen and a Jew.

So from the very little German that I understand I hear lots of sticking up to the arabs, and for me that's "Nonsense", Knight.

You clearly need to learn more German, Saul. You haven't the faintest clue.

[bhodges]

Im sure he speaks lots of nonsense....

So from the very little German that I understand ...

You might consider learning more German before making such rash assumptions.

--Bruce

[Saul]

He wouldn't be Saul if he wouldn't judge things without even speaking the language.

You clearly need to learn more German, Saul. You haven't the faintest clue.

He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....

Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?

Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem,  and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.

He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.

He is also saying that when playing music together there are no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.

[PSmith08]

He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....

Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?

Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem,  and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.

He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.

He is also saying that when playing music together there is no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.

I am no expert on the Israeli constitution, but I was not aware that there was a duty for all Israeli citizens to despise their Arab neighbors and wish them ill, whether or not they've done anything to deserve it. While I am not an Old Testament scholar, I do not recall that there is a mandate for all Jews to hope earnestly for the annihilation, or at least the degradation, of their enemies. If Mr. Barenboim wants to have a 20th-century viewpoint on the matter, and take a standpoint that allows for shades of gray, as opposed to black and white, then that's his business. Also, you've no proof that anyone in the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra has committed any violence against any Israeli citizen. If membership in the ethnic group alone is an unpardonable sin, then your rhetoric has much in common with that of Herr Wagner and his ilk.

To be entirely fair, the issues with Wagner in Israel are entirely political, since they find their root in his writings and take water from the fact that a regime led by a man born after Wagner died used and abused Wagner's music to support their murderous and racist ends.

Nice try, though, Saul. You're going to be a really competent polemicist someday, unless transcribing Abba songs gets in the way.

[MishaK]

He says how these "palestinians" are cultured and they play the cello and the piano....

Well, he calls the people who murder his people and elected a terrorist organization to lead them as "cultured". Doesnt this sound delusional?

No, what is delusional is your inability to distinguish between individuals - the cellist vs. the suicide bomber - due to their common involuntary membership in the same ethnic group.

Then he asks him about playing Wagner in Israel and he says that he had thousands listening to him and it wasnt a big problem,  and that the objection for perfroming his music was political , which was not the case, he good a huge opposition trying to perform Wagner in Israel.

Yes, and that was a political opposition. He didn't force anyone to listen to Wagner against their will. Anyone who didn't want to was free to leave. The larger portion of the audience stayed to listen. Why should a minority deprive a majority of music they'd like to hear, if the minority isn't being forced to listen?

He also asks him about trying to use music as a political tool ....and he answered that this mutual orchestra doesnt function as an orchestra that performs "good music" but its function is to enlighten the ignorant, and that he uses music as an educational tool...and he says that he and the "intellectual' edward said are a part of this project.

Sorry, you misunderstood that. He said that the orchestra is mischaracterized as an orchestra for peace. That it is instead an orchestra against ignorance, because it helps individuals from enemy groups cooperate as musicians and recognize each other as human beings instead of faceless enemies. You could use some of that education yourself. Afraid your piano playing won't cut it though.

He is also saying that when playing music together there is no check points for arabs and there are no israeli soldiers.

No, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that when you're making music together, you have to listen to each other and it becomes irrelevant for the purpose of musicmaking whether you are a Palestinian who went throuagh a checkpoint to get to rehearsal or whether you're an Israeli soldier.

[Saul]

No, what is delusional is your inability to distinguish between individuals - the cellist vs. the suicide bomber - due to their common involuntary membership in the same ethnic group.

Yes, and that was a political opposition. He didn't force anyone to listen to Wagner against their will. Anyone who didn't want to was free to leave. The larger portion of the audience stayed to listen. Why should a minority deprive a majority of music they'd like to hear, if the minority isn't being forced to listen?

Sorry, you misunderstood that. He said that the orchestra is mischaracterized as an orchestra for peace. That it is instead an orchestra against ignorance, because it helps individuals from enemy groups cooperate as musicians and recognize each other as human beings instead of faceless enemies. You could use some of that education yourself. Afraid your piano playing won't cut it though.

No, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that when you're making music together, you have to listen to each other and it becomes irrelevant for the purpose of musicmaking whether you are a Palestinian who went throuagh a checkpoint to get to rehearsal or whether you're an Israeli soldier.

LoL , But you said that I had no clue...

Well you can add that to all the other instances that you were wrong.

And try to keep it civil and dont turn it personal, I was talking about Barenboim and not about you...

[BorisG]

By all accounts, his recent complete Beethoven Sonatas in London were spectacular. It is nice that politics have not interfered with his musicianship.

[PSmith08]

LoL , But you said that I had no clue...

Well you can add that to all the other instances that you were wrong.

And try to keep it civil and dont turn it personal, I was talking about Barenboim and not about you...

Then you can, at least, talk about Barenboim and respond to the five or six really excellent points O Mensch brings to the front.

[Saul]

By all accounts, his recent complete Beethoven Sonatas in London were spectacular. It is nice that politics have not interfered with his musicianship.

Love his Brahms and Beethoven sonatas but hate his Mendelssohn's Songs without words.

[MishaK]

LoL , But you said that I had no clue...

Errm... yes. And what makes you think that you did have a clue? I have shown how everything you said was based on a complete misunderstanding of what he was saying.

Love his Brahms and Beethoven sonatas but hate his Mendelssohn's Songs without words.

I love his Mendelssohn actually. He gets the "Lieder" aspect like no other, having accompanied so many great Lieder singers. He can make the wordless vocal line really sing, breathe and sigh. It is especially interesting in the two or three songs that Mendelssohn marks as "duets" where there are two "vocal" lines, where Barenboim gives each a character of its own.

[Saul]

Errm... yes. And what makes you think that you did have a clue? I have shown how everything you said was based on a complete misunderstanding of what he was saying.

I love his Mendelssohn actually. He gets the "Lieder" aspect like no other, having accompanied so many great Lieder singers. He can make the wordless vocal line really sing, breathe and sigh. It is especially interesting in the two or three songs that Mendelssohn marks as "duets" where there are two "vocal" lines, where Barenboim gives each a character of its own.

I think that I explained very clearly some of the points that Barenboim made in German , even though it wasnt a word by word translation I was able to get some "clue' as to what he was saying, but you on the other hand said that "I had no clue" , so dont speak nonsense, clearly your accusation was baseless.

And Barenboim's Mendelssohn is the worst ever. He has no idea what he is doing in the duetto for instance and he just flows through the songs without that Mendelssohnian charm and elegance that needs to be brought out everytime one plays Mendelssohn. You should listen to Benjamin Frith to understand what I'm talking about.

And listening to Andre Watts playing Mendelssohn's concerto will give you some Idea as to what I mean by Mendelssohnian


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVsiAtKeMEQ

[PSmith08]

I think that I explained very clearly some of the points that Barenboim made in German , even though it wasnt a word by word translation I was able to get some "clue' as to what he was saying, but you on the other hand said that "I had no clue" , so dont speak nonsense, clearly your accusation was baseless.

I don't think, in this case, 'say' means what you think it means. There is a literal interpretation, and then there is a content-based interpretation.

And Barenboim's Mendelssohn is the worst ever. He has no idea what he is doing in the duetto for instance and he just flows through the songs without that Mendelssohnian charm and elegance that needs to be brought out everytime one plays Mendelssohn. You should listen to Benjamin Frith to understand what I'm talking about.

You clearly haven't heard my Mendelssohn. It's awful. If I knew how to play the piano, it might be better, but as it is, it's just off-key rhythmic pounding of a keyboard.

[MishaK]

I think that I explained very clearly some of the points that Barenboim made in German , even though it wasnt a word by word translation I was able to get some "clue' as to what he was saying, but you on the other hand said that "I had no clue" , so dont speak nonsense, clearly your accusation was baseless.

No, you didn't "explain very clearly" anything. You caught a few words and from that deduced what you assumed he said, based on your a priori hostility toward the man. It's not just that it "wasn't a word by word translation", your impression of what Barenboim said was completely wrong. Making completely wrong points qualifies as "nonsense" in my book.

And Barenboim's Mendelssohn is the worst ever. He has no idea what he is doing in the duetto for instance and he just flows through the songs without that Mendelssohnian charm and elegance that needs to be brought out everytime one plays Mendelssohn. You should listen to Benjamin Frith to understand what I'm talking about.

Yes, exaggerated superlatives certainly help you make your case and don't make you sound shrill at all. I don't know anyone by the name of Benjamin Frith, but in any case I prefer to look at the score to see whether someone's interpretation makes sense, thank you.

[Ephemerid]

he sticks up to the "palestinians" like he is some kind of an Arab, while at the same time he blames Israel for problems, I'm sure that you didnt forget that he still is an Israeli citizen and a Jew.

Jets!!  Sharks!!!!    

[Saul]

No, you didn't "explain very clearly" anything. You caught a few words and from that deduced what you assumed he said, based on your a priori hostility toward the man. It's not just that it "wasn't a word by word translation", your impression of what Barenboim said was completely wrong. Making completely wrong points qualifies as "nonsense" in my book.

Yes, exaggerated superlatives certainly help you make your case and don't make you sound shrill at all. I don't know anyone by the name of Benjamin Frith, but in any case I prefer to look at the score to see whether someone's interpretation makes sense, thank you.

Didnt he say that "I had no clue"...?

What "clue" means?

Anyways, listen to Watts and youll see what I mean...

[MishaK]

Didnt he say that "I had no clue"...?

What "clue" means?

You misread the clues. So you haven't got a clue, as the clues were insufficient to help you understand, due to your lack of German-speaking capability.

[PSmith08]

What "clue" means?

I don't know what to say to this one.

Jets!!  Sharks!!!!   

I know. Saul seems like the sort that gets violently angry whenever Paul Simon's "Kodachrome" comes on the radio.

You misread the clues. So you haven't got a clue, as the clues were insufficient to help you understand, due to your lack of German-speaking capability.

Let's not put the cart in front of the horse, that "What 'clue' means?" bit has me worried about English. German can wait. Due diligence and all that.