Barenboim's German interview

[Saul]

You should get the complete DVD set. It's worth the money. I received it for Christmas.

Good idea.

I really think that he plays this movement really well. Though the third movement I think that Horowitz did a better job.

Horowitz Moonlight sonata third movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUoI8nHeuJk

The same movement by Barenboim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeD8ckihN8

There is some power and balance in Horowtiz's interpretation that is of higher quality then the Barenboim interpretation...

[M forever]

There is some power and balance in Horowtiz's interpretation that is of higher quality then the Barenboim interpretation...

*Than*, Saul, *than*, not "then". We already know you don't know German, but that's OK, but you should at least know the language of the place you are living in.

While I am not an Old Testament scholar, I do not recall that there is a mandate for all Jews to hope earnestly for the annihilation, or at least the degradation, of their enemies.

There is, actually.

Apart from not understanding German (note that "understanding" and knowing the meaning of a few words are something different) you seem to be having trouble with English as well now.

Now?


Just watched the interview. The key statement is "Dieses Orchester steht da, um gegen die Ignoranz zu kämpfen", which means "this orchestra is there to fight against ignorance". Saul probably didn't understand that, or maybe he actually did and saw himself under attack as the ambassador of ignorance he is. A lot of people support ignorance because they think it furthers their own little causes but they don't see that everyone pays a big price for that.

I would also like to see Saul reply specifically to the points that O Mensch made. That would be an actual discussion then. Haha, as if that would ever happen...

[Saul]

No, what is delusional is your inability to distinguish between individuals - the cellist vs. the suicide bomber - due to their common involuntary membership in the same ethnic group.

Yes, and that was a political opposition. He didn't force anyone to listen to Wagner against their will. Anyone who didn't want to was free to leave. The larger portion of the audience stayed to listen. Why should a minority deprive a majority of music they'd like to hear, if the minority isn't being forced to listen?

Sorry, you misunderstood that. He said that the orchestra is mischaracterized as an orchestra for peace. That it is instead an orchestra against ignorance, because it helps individuals from enemy groups cooperate as musicians and recognize each other as human beings instead of faceless enemies. You could use some of that education yourself. Afraid your piano playing won't cut it though.

No, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that when you're making music together, you have to listen to each other and it becomes irrelevant for the purpose of musicmaking whether you are a Palestinian who went throuagh a checkpoint to get to rehearsal or whether you're an Israeli soldier.

Let me spill the beans for you so you might get it this time.

First of all, this Jewish/Israeli Conductor is giving out these interviews on German television, a nation that was responsible for the murder of 6 million innocent men women and children ( a million children)  of his people just some 60 years ago. You might of expected him to converse about how terrible the Germans were to his people and what he as a musician and as a Jew can do to reconnect German citizens to their history and the crimes of their fathers so they wouldnt ever do these evil crimes again.

But instead of doing that, he is trying to "build bridges" by bringing the sworn enemies of the Jewish people to sit down with Jewish musicians and play music. One can say that there is nothing wrong with that, and that it might count as a good gesture or endeavor, for why would it be wrong to take a few musicians from 'Hitler's youth' and sit them together with Jewish musicians and  play together some Wagner?

How bad can it be right?

But when the element of Barenboim's constant bombardment of  Israel and how Israel is to blame for the derailment of the so called 'War process' and his outspoken hostility to Israel in general  then the entire validity and virtue of his project comes to question.

Why is he investing so much time criticizing Israel when he perfectly knows (I hope he knows) that the people he is trying to help (Palestinians) have willfully elected a vehemently anti-Semitic organization into power ?

What is the exact difference between the Hamas suicide bomber who murdered innocent people and the one who elected his dispatchers into office? Can you please enlighten us O Mench with your wit and inform us ?

It is extremely arrogant on his part just because he is a great musician and has many fans , that doesn't give him any right to take up the position of "ambassador of peace" . No one has appointed him to this position, and frankly he cant put himself into this position. He is not a politician, nor a military official. Therefore been a  famous musician is not a free ticket to become a politician. And if you had listened carefully, the interviewer asked him about using music as a political tool and to be sure, that's exactly what Barenboim is doing, he is using the power that he has from been a famous musician to try to dictate politics while at the same time leaving a trail of accusations  and criticism at Israel.

I truly believe that Barenboim's motive stems from a candid good will , to make this world a better place, but the way he is trying to achieve it is completely wrong and could even be criminal.  His delusional behavior stems from his shocking ignorance of his Jewish religious heritage and  history. His pathological dismissal of Arab barbarism and sadism towards Israel even  before the creation of the State of Israel bars him from been a well informed and a balanced representative for Israel. What remains here is that he is a representative of the Palestinians and not of the Jewish people. Therefore, I asked and rightfully so, why does he conduct himself this way?

Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason.

Now , you're telling me hey Saul! Can't you distinguish between the Nazi SS murderer and the Violin playing German citizen who lives in the mountains of Bavaria?

No I do not see any difference. As long as that German violinist doesn't separate himself from Nazi ideology and  barbarism and as long as he casts his vote for this evil regime, then I don't see any difference because the SS German murderer is a messenger of those who put him into office.

You might argue that the German violinist didn't know that this Nazi government will become so evil.

To that I will answer that, when now he knows, he should separate himself from this regime and try to resist it any way he can.

These Palestinians musicians are not living in a high jacked territory. They had democratically voted in a government in power that openly calls for the murder of the Jewish people, of innocent Jewish men women and children, just like the Germans did some 60 years ago. Therefore as long as these musicians grant legitimacy to hamas and Fatah, they are just as bad as the suicide bombers and playing the piano or cello doesn't  cover this fact.

And last but not least , one would have thought that Barenboim in his delusional naïve and ridiculous attempt to achieve peace through these actions, would have chosen a legitimate decent and honorable person as a partner, for two are better then one as they say. But instead of that honorable person, Barenboim chose the famous anti Semitic "Professor" Edward Said, who by the way traveled all the way to Lebanon  in order to hurle stones (with the intention to kill) at Israeli soldiers. Very balanced choice right?

I mean who do you pick as a partner if you want to show the world that you mean honesty, Balance and trust ?

Someone that  his photos of throwing stones at Israeli soldiers were circled all around the world for billions to see?

Was that a good choice?

Of course not and for this answer one doesn't need translators and interpreters , for it is clear as the sun shines on a bright day and as the moon glows on a clear blue night.

[Ephemerid]

"the sworn enemies of the Jewish people"? 

+++++

"Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason."

Is it really this black and white?  Oh, were life really as clear cut & as simple as how you see it...

[The new erato]

,They had democratically voted in a government in power that openly calls for the murder of the Jewish people, of innocent Jewish men women and children, just like the Germans did some 60 years ago.

Just as the Israeli persist in electing governments that blatantly disregads international law in expropriating palestinian propoerty etc. Surely you're aware of that. An extremist is an extremist by any color.

[Saul]

Just as the Israeli persist in electing governments that blatantly disregads international law in expropriating palestinian propoerty etc. Surely you're aware of that. An extremist is an extremist by any color.

Disregard international law?

You have Hamas sending missiles raining over Israeli cities with the intention to murder innocent civilians, the same thing Hezbollah is doing in the north, and all Israel is doing is responding in an extremely shocking restrained manner , trying to get only those who commit these evil actions and who hide behind innocent civilians.

What would have any other "normal" country  done in a similar situation when faced with a rain of missiles directed at its citizens?

When Britain was attacked by Germany in WW2 by Missiles at London trying to kill as many innocent English citizens, Churchill responded by flattening entire German cities such as Dresden and hundreds of thousands of Germans were killed.

But today , in the case of Israel, it doesn't behave in the same manner as the vicious and evil Palestinians behave. Israel is only trying to get the terrorists who are committing these evil crimes , and its against its interest to attack civilians, firstly because of a moral issue and secondly because its bound  by democratic principals and cant resort to the same behavior as the terrorist.

And anyone who compares Israel to Hamas or the P.L.O is a Jew hater , for he is willfully blinding himself to reality and he compares the Jew against his oppressors and demands that the Jew should only be allowed to suffer aggression and terror, but never fight back, for he will risk to be labeled as a criminal himself, just because he wants to stay alive and protect himself and his home.

You and the likes of you are Jew haters, and there is nothing in the world that you can say that will blur this fact.

[M forever]

Let me spill the beans for you so you might get it this time.

I am sure O Mensch will be happy to have all these things explained to him by you, someone who doesn't speak German, has no idea what is going on there today, and what Barenboim actually said in the interview. As someone who does speak German and has actually lived there for many years, he needs these things explained to him by you.  

First of all, this Jewish/Israeli Conductor is giving out these interviews on German television, a nation that was responsible for the murder of 6 million innocent men women and children ( a million children)  of his people just some 60 years ago. You might of expected him to converse about how terrible the Germans were to his people and what he as a musician and as a Jew can do to reconnect German citizens to their history and the crimes of their fathers so they wouldnt ever do these evil crimes again.

Germans already are extremely well connected to their history. Information about and discussion of the Nazi era is everywhere, all the time, so people already know what has happened and it has all been very openly discussed for decades. Which is why the vast majority of Germans today is so tolerant, but also concerned about seeing other injustices happening elsewhere today.

Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn’t represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that’s his right but he doesn’t speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn’t represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner’s music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don’t , and they have a good reason.

There are many, many Jewish musicians who play Wagner. You basically saying they aren't "real Jews" is just like the Nazis deciding who were "real Germans" and who not.

And last but not least , one would have thought that Barenboim in his delusional naïve and ridiculous attempt to achieve peace through these actions

Barenboim very explicitly says that he is not trying to achieve peace through these actions because that has to be done by other means - so you really didn't understand what he said at all - he says he just wants to provide a platform for dialog through cultural means.

In the political chaos and turmoil in Germany in the 20s, there were people who tried to moderate between opposing fractions and de-escalate the situation, and they were defamed by extremists just like you. Many people in Germany and elsewhere have learned from these and other historical situations. You haven't. You don't even really know history and believe in some naive mythology instead. Mentally, you are very close to a Nazi in many, many respects. You are an interesting object of study, I have to say.

[Saul]

I am sure O Mensch will be happy to have all these things explained to him by you, someone who doesn't speak German, has no idea what is going on there today, and what Barenboim actually said in the interview. As someone who does speak German and has actually lived there for many years, he needs these things explained to him by you.  

Germans already are extremely well connected to their history. Information about and discussion of the Nazi era is everywhere, all the time, so people already know what has happened and it has all been very openly discussed for decades. Which is why the vast majority of Germans today is so tolerant, but also concerned about seeing other injustices happening elsewhere today.

There are many, many Jewish musicians who play Wagner. You basically saying they aren't "real Jews" is just like the Nazis deciding who were "real Germans" and who not.

Barenboim very explicitly says that he is not trying to achieve peace through these actions because that has to be done by other means - so you really didn't understand what he said at all - he says he just wants to provide a platform for dialog through cultural means.

In the political chaos and turmoil in Germany in the 20s, there were people who tried to moderate between opposing fractions and de-escalate the situation, and they were defamed by extremists just like you. Many people in Germany and elsewhere have learned from these and other historical situations. You haven't. You don't even really know history and believe in some naive mythology instead. Mentally, you are very close to a Nazi in many, many respects. You are an interesting object of study, I have to say.

Calling a Jew a Nazi is an anti Semitic and a sick thing, M, but I know that you cant do better then this diatribe, for what can one expect from a fool like you?

I wont respond to the rest of your diatribe, for its your usual nonsense  just repeated once again.

[M forever]

Calling a Jew a Nazi is an anti Semitic and a sick thing, M

I didn't call you a Nazi - you obviously don't qualify - but you are very close to them in your thinking, just on the other side of the fence, but looking in the same direction. Since you aren't very well informed about history, you probably don't even realize that.

You, on the other hand, decide what "real Jews" like or don't like (e.g., Wagner), so you actually are anti-semite by your own definition. Because you put down other Jews because they don't conform to your ideas about what a "real Jew" is supposed to be like. Again, in that respect you behave exactly like the Nazis who decided who were "real Germans" and what "real Germans" should do and think and like and dislike.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Why does he think that he represents any Jew? He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all. He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason.

From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine, who is as Jewish as they come; and only in the past few years have a couple of these operas been directed by Valery Gergiev and the Jewish conductor Lorin Maazel.

Why? because these men are not true Jews? because they don't speak to the Jewish people? Or is it not rather because they recognize that, the shortcomings of the man's character aside, he was not personally responsible for the use the Nazis made of him, and he was a very great composer whose music still has a powerful impact on operagoers.

This isn't the place to get into whether the libretti Wagner wrote for his operas have any overt or covert anti-Semitic subtexts (I actually feel some of that is present, but not to the extremes that some scholars take it). But I feel also that to see Wagner as the symbol for all of one's quite obviously justified loathing of the Nazis is extreme. I think Hitler said something to the effect that whoever would understand National Socialism must understand Wagner. But that does not mean Hitler had an accurate understanding of Wagner himself; it means solely that he saw something in Wagner he could turn to his own nefarious purposes. And besides there are other composers the Nazis championed - Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Orff - who seem never to carry the same onus in Jewish eyes as the wizard of Bayreuth.

[Sergeant Rock]

And besides there are other composers the Nazis championed - Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Orff -

Liszt, Beethoven...

Sarge

[M forever]

From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine, who is as Jewish as they come; and only in the past few years have a couple of these operas been directed by Valery Gergiev and the Jewish conductor Lorin Maazel.

Huh? Wagner operas are performed everywhere, all the time, by Jewish and non-Jewish conductors. That said, the list of Jewish conductors who championed Wagner even after the 3rd Reich is extremely long and filled with many important musical personalities.

And besides there are other composers the Nazis championed - Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Orff - who seem never to carry the same onus in Jewish eyes as the wizard of Bayreuth.

I tink Strauss was also seen as problematical for a long time - I remember watching an interview with Zubin Mehta who said he couldn't perform his orchestral works in Israel, but that he played them in rehearsals with the IPO because it is very important for an orchestra to play these pieces. A number of years ago, there was a performance of "Metamorphosen" by the Kibbuz Chamber Orchestra which was apparently rather controversial but also thawed the ice. I think Strauss is now performed in Israel just like everywhere else. A friend from Tel Aviv told me that "Carmina burana" has always been a great favorite there though, strange, isn't it? Of course, the music doesn't have anything to do with Nazism as such, but the association is obvious because it was atually written during that era - unlike Wagner and most of Strauss.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Huh? Wagner operas are performed everywhere, all the time, by Jewish and non-Jewish conductors. That said, the list of Jewish conductors who championed Wagner even after the 3rd Reich is extremely long and filled with many important musical personalities.

Please read what I wrote: "From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine."

Examples: There were 32 Tristans at the Met between 1981-today, all conducted by Levine. All Ring cycles between 1989-2004 at the Met were under Levine. Of 57 Parsifals given from 1980-today, 49 were under Levine, and he would have conducted the three in 2006 had he not injured his shoulder.

[Florestan]

Saul, you're not a Nazi, just a narrow-minded fanatic.

[PSmith08]

Disregard international law?

You have Hamas sending missiles raining over Israeli cities with the intention to murder innocent civilians, the same thing Hezbollah is doing in the north, and all Israel is doing is responding in an extremely shocking restrained manner , trying to get only those who commit these evil actions and who hide behind innocent civilians.

I don't recall the conquest of Lebanon being anything approaching 'restrained.' Indeed, Beirut was brought to her knees - again - and even Israeli authorities admit that it was mishandled.

What would have any other "normal" country  done in a similar situation when faced with a rain of missiles directed at its citizens?

Built more bomb-shelters?

When Britain was attacked by Germany in WW2 by Missiles at London trying to kill as many innocent English citizens, Churchill responded by flattening entire German cities such as Dresden and hundreds of thousands of Germans were killed.

Because two wrongs make a right...

But today , in the case of Israel, it doesn't behave in the same manner as the vicious and evil Palestinians behave. Israel is only trying to get the terrorists who are committing these evil crimes , and its against its interest to attack civilians, firstly because of a moral issue and secondly because its bound  by democratic principals and cant resort to the same behavior as the terrorist.

And anyone who compares Israel to Hamas or the P.L.O is a Jew hater , for he is willfully blinding himself to reality and he compares the Jew against his oppressors and demands that the Jew should only be allowed to suffer aggression and terror, but never fight back, for he will risk to be labeled as a criminal himself, just because he wants to stay alive and protect himself and his home.

You and the likes of you are Jew haters, and there is nothing in the world that you can say that will blur this fact.

Tell that to the dead Lebanese civilians. I am sure that they'll really love your moral rectitude and certainty that violence isn't violence when the 'good guys' commit it. Of course, we Americans elected a president who sounds remarkably like you, so we have a collective soft spot for all-or-nothing moralists with a taste for blood. Keep up the good work. From New York City, here in Fortress America, where you don't actually have to deal with any of the issues about which you are so sure. It must be really easy to be so morally certain from a café on the Lower East Side.

[M forever]

Saul, you're not a Nazi, just a narrow-minded fanatic.

Exactly, and that's what he has in common with them. Nobody ever said he was an *actual* Nazi, a subscriber to that particular ideology in all its details. But his racist and elitist group thinking and the way he looks at other groups as being all enemies and the way he wants to define what members of his own (perceived) group are supposed to be like (or not) are all elements which bring him very close to that - or indeed any extremist - ideology.

Please read what I wrote: "From the mid 1980s up until recently, you could rarely hear a performance at the Metropolitan Opera of the Ring, Meistersinger, Tristan, or Parsifal that wasn't conducted by James Levine."

Examples: There were 32 Tristans at the Met between 1981-today, all conducted by Levine. All Ring cycles between 1989-2004 at the Met were under Levine. Of 57 Parsifals given from 1980-today, 49 were under Levine, and he would have conducted the three in 2006 had he not injured his shoulder.

Oops, sorry, I didn't see the MET part. That, and the fact that he has recorded and filmed the Ring and conducted at Bayreuth apparently makes Levine "not a real Jew" in Saul's eyes.

Because two wrongs make a right...

Plus another very obvious difference is that Germany at that time had the most powerful army ever assembled in history, so it had to be total war. Which in my mind doesn't excuse the militarily unnecessary acts of destruction such as the firebombing of Dresden which made the British sink to the same level as the Wehrmacht and SS, but that's another topic. Saul's comparison here is certainly silly because the Palestinians are in no way as well equipped and strong in numbers as the German forces during WWII. But the Israelis certainly often react as if they had to deal with a huge army of evil on the other side.

[MishaK]

Why is he investing so much time criticizing Israel when he perfectly knows (I hope he knows) that the people he is trying to help (Palestinians) have willfully elected a vehemently anti-Semitic organization into power ?

What is the exact difference between the Hamas suicide bomber who murdered innocent people and the one who elected his dispatchers into office? Can you please enlighten us O Mench with your wit and inform us ?

This is your central problem right here: guilt by association. Have you surveyed all the musicians of the WEDO? Do you know who they individually voted for? Do you even know the differences between Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah etc.? Some of these kids are under 18 years of age. Are you going to hold it against them that they have shown the good will of coming to peacefully play music with Jewish kids and a Jewish conductor? Does this somehow make them bad people? Is evil passed on by blood? Be careful now. If you answer yes to the last question, you have basically reformulated the Nuremberg laws from a Jewish supremacist perspective.

It is extremely arrogant on his part just because he is a great musician and has many fans , that doesn't give him any right to take up the position of "ambassador of peace" . No one has appointed him to this position, and frankly he cant put himself into this position. He is not a politician, nor a military official. Therefore been a  famous musician is not a free ticket to become a politician. And if you had listened carefully, the interviewer asked him about using music as a political tool and to be sure, that's exactly what Barenboim is doing, he is using the power that he has from been a famous musician to try to dictate politics while at the same time leaving a trail of accusations  and criticism at Israel.

Saul, you might have noticed: in a democracy, everyone has freedom of speech. Is Israel a democracy or not? If it is, it should be a matter of pride for you personally to defend Barenboim's right to express his contrary opinions. If you don't understand that concept you have no business calling yourself a citizen of a democratic society. PS: Barenboim has nowhere near the power to dictate anything to anyone, not even to his own musicians, certainly not to the state of Israel.

His delusional behavior stems from his shocking ignorance of his Jewish religious heritage and  history.

My friend, culture and heritage is not a static thing encapsulated in amber. You've got to stop living in the past.

His pathological dismissal of Arab barbarism and sadism towards Israel even  before the creation of the State of Israel bars him from been a well informed and a balanced representative for Israel. What remains here is that he is a representative of the Palestinians and not of the Jewish people. Therefore, I asked and rightfully so, why does he conduct himself this way?

What is pathological here is your manichean worldview. You are completely unwilling to grant the Palestinians or any Arabs any human dignity. So therefore anyone with a more nuanced view of the world who recognizes that Israel is co-responsible for the intractable mess between those two nations is immediately a "representative of the Palestinians", right? You do realize that prior to the creation of the modern state of Israel, these guys were peacefully living there, right?

Why does he think that he represents any Jew?

He doesn't. German language capabilities might have been useful for you. Too bad.

He doesn't represent me or any other Jew living anywhere. He might represent himself and that's his right but he doesn't speak for the Jews at all.

But you think you do? Saul Dzorelashvili, the next Messiah? Representative of all Jews?

He also doesn't represent Jewish acceptance of Wagner's music. He might love Wagner, but Jews don't , and they have a good reason.

Apart from Sforzando's mention of Levine, a quick perusal of a recording catalogue will prove your assertion untrue by the mere listing of the countless Jewish musicians who love Wagner's music so much, they can't stop playing it. PS: also Hermann Levi conducted many of his operas' permieres during Wagner's lifetime.

Now , you're telling me hey Saul! Can't you distinguish between the Nazi SS murderer and the Violin playing German citizen who lives in the mountains of Bavaria?

No, I have two much better questions: can't you distinguish between Nazis and present day generations of Germans who weren't even alive then? More importantly: can't you distinguish between German Nazis and modern Palestinians? That is the central problem of yours and all hardline conservatives around the world: you keep re-fighting old wars. Whether it's McCain who is convinced he must stay in Iraq to "win" because he can't bear the trauma and indignity of another loss like Vietnam; or whether it is Israeli conservatives who think they can undo the Holocaust by blowing their Palestinian neighbors to smithereens; it's the same pathological blindness and inability to understand the present for what it is instead of projecting onto the present fears borne our of memories of an unpleasant past.

No I do not see any difference. As long as that German violinist doesn't separate himself from Nazi ideology and  barbarism and as long as he casts his vote for this evil regime, then I don't see any difference because the SS German murderer is a messenger of those who put him into office.

But how do you know they don't separate themselves from this ideology? You are just judging them a priori based on ethnicity - in exactly the same way that some of their forebears judged members of your people - instead of recognizing them as individuals. For you, Germans and Palestinians are a priori guilty unless they themselves prove to you their innocence. That's twisted, man. People like you are doomed to live in perpetual fear and in a constant repetition of vicious cycles of vengeful violence. As long as you have that attitude, you will never escape that cycle.

And last but not least , one would have thought that Barenboim in his delusional naïve and ridiculous attempt to achieve peace through these actions, would have chosen a legitimate decent and honorable person as a partner, for two are better then one as they say. But instead of that honorable person, Barenboim chose the famous anti Semitic "Professor" Edward Said, who by the way traveled all the way to Lebanon  in order to hurle stones (with the intention to kill) at Israeli soldiers. Very balanced choice right?

Saul, this nonsense has to end. I'd wager that you have never read a single piece by Said, let alone any of his many books. The guy is anything but an anti-Semite (PS: I know this escapes you, but Arabs, too, are a semitic people). You might want to read up why Said went to Lebanon to hurl (no e) those stones. But that's asking too much of you. You can't recognize the fundamental injustice of forcibly expelling a population that has done nothing to you in order to erect your own state, then keeping them as second-class citizens and gradually occupying more and more of their territory in violation of treaties your own country has signed. You can't recognize that your people would ever do anything that might just objectively qualify as "bad", let alone "evil". You will never have the intellectual capacity to truly empathize with someone so different from yourself as to be able to put yourself into the shoes of a Palestinian in the occupied territories, without economic or personal perspectives and understand why that person would see the IDF as the enemy and use whatever futile weapons to express his anger, impotence and just try to make a slight difference, if only to put a small dent in an Israeli APC by throwing a rock. You also don't recognize the moral difference between a civilian who throws rocks against the armed military forces of an occupier vs. someone who commits a suicide bombing at a civilian gathering place.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I admire your patience and cogency, O Mensch.

[PSmith08]

Plus another very obvious difference is that Germany at that time had the most powerful army ever assembled in history, so it had to be total war. Which in my mind doesn't excuse the militarily unnecessary acts of destruction such as the firebombing of Dresden which made the British sink to the same level as the Wehrmacht and SS, but that's another topic. Saul's comparison here is certainly silly because the Palestinians are in no way as well equipped and strong in numbers as the German forces during WWII. But the Israelis certainly often react as if they had to deal with a huge army of evil on the other side.

Even at that, the destruction of Dresden caused a lot of queasiness on the Allied side. A lot of folks saw (and still see) the attack on Dresden, which had some military significance but not nearly as much as the Ruhr area (Essen and Dortmund, for example), as retaliation for Coventry in England. Even Churchill began to edge away from the raid when it became clear that a lot of people could not understand why Dresden was leveled. Not the Allies' proudest moment, not by a long shot.

It is ridiculous for anyone to assert that the various Palestinian terror organizations have one one-thousandth the military capability and organization of one division of the Wehrmacht. They are not trained and well-equipped soldiers with clear military objectives. They are a bunch of ragtag fanatics, rolling around in beat-up Toyota pickups and waving thirty-year-old AK-47s around like idiots. The fact that an army as well-equipped and well-trained as the IDF cannot dispatch a cadre of third-raters is not a great testament to the High Command.

This is your central problem right here: guilt by association. Have you surveyed all the musicians of the WEDO? Do you know who they individually voted for? Do you even know the differences between Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah etc.? Some of these kids are under 18 years of age. Are you going to hold it against them that they have shown the good will of coming to peacefully play music with Jewish kids and a Jewish conductor? Does this somehow make them bad people? Is evil passed on by blood? Be careful now. If you answer yes to the last question, you have basically reformulated the Nuremberg laws from a Jewish supremacist perspective.

This is the central question, and one that I think has been answered. For our dear correspondent, merely being Palestinian is enough to make them enemies of Israel and the Jewish people.

[The new erato]

Thank heavens there's sane people like O Mensch, PSmith08, Jezetha around. On the other hand this discussion certainly shows there are zealots on either side of the Middle East conflict.