Name that orchestra - Tchaikovsky Symphony No 5

[Brian]

Hello folks!

This is a distinctly unofficial round of Mystery Orchestra, the game in which we listen to clips of a famous work played by various anonymous orchestras and analyze and compare their styles. I say unofficial because I think M forever is currently preparing for one featuring Debussy (?) but I hope this will interest you. Our feature is Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony - the recapitulation and coda from the first movement, and a few minutes from the beginning of the second movement. The total time of each of the four clips included is about 10-11 minutes! Remember, the goal is not necessarily to correctly guess the identity of each orchestra, but to discuss, compare and analyze the recordings with the freedom provided by anonymous listening. What do you think of the different approaches - and what are the individual qualities of the different orchestras?

I have included some fairly unorthodox interpretations, and some fairly orthodox ones. There are some old recordings, and some new ones. A couple are very well-known, and a couple are not. If you own them maybe just supply hints to those who don't. Remember, it's not a competition to guess the most, so nobody wins.  

Download a rar file via Mediafire here (320 kbps) or, for a quicker download but lower quality, here (128 kbps). Let me know if there are any problems; otherwise, let the mystery begin!

[M forever]

"Mystery Orchestra" is a trademarked title, so please change the title of the thread, or else I will have to send my lawyers after you! OK, I don't actually *have* any lawyers, but I could get O Mensch and as you know from his contributions here, he is one mean bastard! 

[Brian]

"Mystery Orchestra" is a trademarked title, so please change the title of the thread, or else I will have to send my lawyers after you! OK, I don't actually *have* any lawyers, but I could get O Mensch and as you know from his contributions here, he is one mean bastard! 

How about Mystery Symphonic Ensemble? 

(By the way, that's why I left orchestra un-capitalized in the title.  )

[M forever]

How about Mystery Symphonic Ensemble? 

(By the way, that's why I left orchestra un-capitalized in the title.  )

Better the word "Mystery" does not apply in the title at all. Otherwise it will be too easy for my lawyers to get you. I think the clips are a too compressed for a fair assessment of the sound quality, and that can also affect the assessment of the playing, but I will listen to them anwyay. For once, the wireless connection in my hotel works OK, so I just downloaded and unzipped the package.

[Brian]

Better the word "Mystery" does not apply in the title at all. Otherwise it will be too easy for my lawyers to get you. I think the clips are a too compressed for a fair assessment of the sound quality,

Hm, "Enigmatic Symphonic Ensemble"? "Conundrumonic Philharmonic"? The prospect of O Mensch terrifies me.    And it's true the clips are at only 128kbps, not great enough to be written home about.

[M forever]

"Symphonic Enigma" might work and protect you from dire legal consequences.

Just a few quick impression from sampling the clips under the influence of half a bottle of Smirnoff. I may revise some of these comments later:

1 is pretty mediocre playing, a "lesser" East European, probably Russian orchestra, maybe of the Moscow rather than the Leningrad school. Or maybe not a Russian orchestra, but one from another Eastern Block country, probably Poland or Slovakia. Musically OK, fairly straightforward but not particularly "interesting".

2 is an American orchestra, could be 60s BSO. Musically more appealing and well prepared with more attention to expressive phrasing and inner voices.

3 is a "central European" orchestra. Could be SOBR. At first, I thought it could be the WP, but the trumpets are too bright and the oboe doesn't sound "quite right" for that. But the string playing is too free, cultivated and nuanced for it to be an American orchestra (although there are of course exceptions to that rule). Musically the most interesting clip so far, with a freely flowing, breathing and lyrical quality that reminds me of Kubelik at first ear.

4 Quite nice, too, but too hammered by now to say anything of interest. I will be back!

If possible, reupload the individual clips in better quality, best would be 320kbps. The compression artifacts are very annoying even in my present condition and make judging the quality of the string rather difficult.

[Sean]

Where's the wretched clips?

[PerfectWagnerite]

1) Pretty terrible. I take it the conductor takes a ritardando always accompanies a decrescendo and a stringendo always accompanies a crescendo. Sounds like something Thielemann would do but I don't think he recorded the work (mercifully). Pretty average first desk playing all over. The wobbly vibrato in the horn in the second movement would rule out anything German, Austrian, Dutch, American or British. Could be a Soviet Orchestra in it's total lack of tonal beauty.

2) My computer thinks this is defective so no comments.

3) Sounds like an American orchestra. At times it shows flashes of Central European playing like the sweet strings and pungeant horns but the oboe doesn't quite sound like it. Pretty good all over.

4) Rather slow but once you get used to it has a lot of nuance. I would say something central European but not the WP since the oboe doesn't sound like a Viennese oboe and the horn doesn't sound quite like a Viennese F-horn plus the strings aren't as nuanced as the WP string body.

[Brian]

2) My computer thinks this is defective so no comments.

Sorry to hear it, I've made up a new file and posted it here. M, this new one I specified in the editing program to be 320, but it may or may not be (I'm dealing with computer files since all my CDs are at home). Please do check to see if the quality is better.

Where's the wretched clips?

RAR file linked in first post. The clips are ten minutes each so I can't really upload them directly to the forum.

Interesting comments so far. Orchestra 1 has few friends (that have spoken anyway). It is certainly not an obscure or third-rate ensemble, were one to judge by its current reputation.

[M forever]

1) Pretty terrible. I take it the conductor takes a ritardando always accompanies a decrescendo and a stringendo always accompanies a crescendo. Sounds like something Thielemann would do but I don't think he recorded the work (mercifully). Pretty average first desk playing all over. The wobbly vibrato in the horn in the second movement would rule out anything German, Austrian, Dutch, American or British. Could be a Soviet Orchestra in it's total lack of tonal beauty.

As "unimpressive" as this clip is  indeed, I have to say, what a totally idiotic comment. You have probably never even heard a Soviet or Russian orchestra live. We already know you have tin ears and not much of a clue about orchestral music and playing styles, if you pull yourself together and don't act like you did, then you could make some sensible comments. You should try that rather than pretending to undertand stuff you don't.

Interesting comments so far. Orchestra 1 has few friends (that have spoken anyway). It is certainly not an obscure or third-rate ensemble, were one to judge by its current reputation.

The "current" reputation doesn't matter. Even really good orchestras have bad days or can be recorded in ways which make them sound less than beautiful. In any case, this is not even played that well either.

[Sean]

Sorry guys, my old computer here won't play those. Great passion in the ending of this piece of course, and getting at that without going overboard is the key here.

[M forever]

Thanks for letting us know, Sean.

Brian - I will send you the login info for my file hosting website then you can host larger files such as 320kbps which is what I do for "Mystery Orchestra". But only if you change the plagiarist thread title 

[MishaK]

but I could get O Mensch and as you know from his contributions here, he is one mean bastard! 

But the only times I have ever set foot in a courtroom was to be sworn in as a member of the bar. I'm not a litigator and know nothing about intellectual property. 

Will check out the clips in due course.

[Brian]

Apologies for the unnecessary delay! Here are the four clips at 320kbps quality. (Mediafire has a limit of 100mb per file; fortunately this one was precisely 99.87mb...) I will also update the first post in the thread to revise the link.

[Gustav]

when will you post the answers? I can't wait!

[Brian]

when will you post the answers? I can't wait!

when will you post some of your opinions on the different interpretations? Much of the point is to comment upon playing styles of the different orchestras without being prejudiced by the knowledge of which is which

[Gustav]

when will you post some of your opinions on the different interpretations? Much of the point is to comment upon playing styles of the different orchestras without being prejudiced by the knowledge of which is which

I have, i just choose not to post it, i think a certain level of privacy should be allowed when playing these games, some people want to play publicly, and i would like to play it on my own. Is there something wrong with that?

[M forever]

Not really, but the main point of these blind listening "games" is really unbiased *discussion*, not so much the guessing part which isn't that important, it's fun but what is really interesting is people voicing opinions about samples of music making without being influenced by whatever they think they should hear based on their ideas about certain performers and all that. So doing that part "privately" doesn't make much sense. After all, a forum is for discussions. Why are so many people so reluctant to just say what they think when they don't know who they are listening to, but when they do have that information, they suddenly have very strong opinions and no reservations about voicing them stronly and publically? Nobody should be embarrassed to say their opinion and/or take a more or less wild guess. I may be totally wrong with my guesses above, and I should revisit those clips when I am not as drunk as I was when I typed in my "guesses"  but even if I am completely wrong about the identities, nobody gets hurt, so why don't you post your views and maybe some "wild guesses", too?

[Bonehelm]

Wild guesses:

1. Budapest symphony orchestra
2. Boston Symphony orchestra
3. Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra
4. Chicago symphony orchestra

[Greta]

Finally, I get around to posting!

Couldn't have picked a better work, or starting point, I think this one of my favorite moments in the symphony. (I swear we read each other's minds! ) Funny, a couple of weeks ago, I saw the Texas All-State orchestra rehearse and coincidentally this is the exact spot they were working..

Thoughts:

1- I like this recording, I like the way the solo horn sounds, it is unusual, there is significant vibrato, it sounds almost more like a euphonium. At 9:30, I once had that bit stuck in my head for days and couldn't remember what piece it was...it's lovely how Tchaikovsky plays with major/minor tonality in the last minute or so of the clip. I don't know, I don't think it's an American orchestra , European perhaps.

2 - The phrase shaping is interesting here, nice lush strings, the brass (trumpets) are a little too present in the balance in some places. There is some kind of Russian drama that is missing around 4-5 min, this one doesn't grab me as much. Maybe American orchestra. I like the round clear clarinet and woodwind tones.

3 - This sounds like a newer recording. I like the urgency here, and the dynamics within phrases! Graceful, they make it sound easy. Love how this gathers speed and power, the tempo changes seem so natural. Haha, nice speed on the pizz section! At 3 min! What a powerful tutti. Holy ____ , the brass section....I'm going to resist knee jerk "Vienna Phil"...maybe it's Berlin...or one of the Staatskapelles...I know I love the interpretation though. The horn solo is just stunning. The control, the dynamics. Can't get over that. I love most everything about this one. Lot of emotion in the 2nd mvmt.

4 - Nice sweep here too, I like the strength and body of sound from the strings, love the end of the 1st mvmt! The phrases are definite "statements", great stuff. Lots of full lowness in the sound, I like the sound of the group. I'm wondering if this is maybe Philadelphia, just a thought...Cleveland maybe. Yeah, I really don't know. Good recording.

This has been open quite a while, will the reveal be soon? Looking forward to it!