Handel Suggestions

[The new erato]

It's interesting how many classical music fans are Händel-ignorants.

I've noted the same thing. It took me 20 years of listening to Bach before I discovered that Handel is nearly as great, just in a very different way.

[SonicMan46]

Well, despite Handel's Wind Sonatas, etc. being somewhat 'berated' in this thread, these remain enjoyable works that I've been listening to for many years - below is a post of mine from the 'listening' thread that quickly was 'buried' - just checked BRO, the the 3-CD Hyperion offering is no longer there - 

Handel, GF - Twenty Sonatas, Op. 1 for soloist & continuo - 3CD set on Hyperion w/ the Locatelli Trio (Wallfisch on violin, Tunnicliffe on cello, & Nicholson on harpsichord) + various soloists (Paul Goodman on oboe, Lisa Beznosiuk on flute, & Rachel Beckett on recorder); excellent bargain from BRO (about $20) - thus, Baroque solo chamber works (the HWV numbers ranged from 357 to 379 w/ most included in-between); so, if you already own some of this music, check out the numbers closely (I had a Philips Duo w/ many already included) - these are marvellous performances from 1994 - listings on HYPERION HERE - delightful music! 

 

[Rod Corkin]

I've noted the same thing. It took me 20 years of listening to Bach before I discovered that Handel is nearly as great, just in a very different way.

Similarly after 20 years of listening to Bach I discovered much to my surprise that it was in fact Handel who was by far the greater composer. The musical Establishment with its cult worship of Bach has a lot to answer for.

[The new erato]

The musical Establishment with its cult worship of Bach has a lot to answer for.

No. We all make our listening choices, and while Handel was revered by Beethoven, Bach lay unperformed.

Just as little to do with the musical "Establishment" as the fact that some people are unlucky and dies at an early age has to do with the medical "Establishment".

And I would still argue that Bach is the (IMO) "better" (but only slightly) composer , whatever that means, though both are very, very great.

[Rod Corkin]

No. We all make our listening choices, and while Handel was revered by Beethoven, Bach lay unperformed.

Just as little to do with the musical "Establishment" as the fact that some people are unlucky and dies at an early age has to do with the medical "Establishment".

And I would still argue that Bach is the (IMO) "better" (but only slightly) composer , whatever that means, though both are very, very great.

I'm afraid I disagree, there is a reason why Handel was virtually forgotten for most of the 20th Century. Many of his greatest works did not even have a performing edition until the 1990s! His greatest work, Theodora is a classic example of this. I have no idea how you can decide Bach was the better composer, no idea. The music speaks for itself and sorry but Bach sounds like a small town composer next to Handel's dozens of epic vocal works. Bach's forgetful contrapuntal meanderings can't compare with Handel's supreme melodic and dramatic invention.

[Josquin des Prez]

Similarly after 20 years of listening to Bach

And it took you this long to discover he was a small town composer? My, you are a slow one.

[Harry]

http://www.wesleyclassics.com.au/library/images/4465632.jpg[/img]

I can only confirm the excellence of that recording Dave.
I bought the complete Philips Mozart box, some time ago, and these wind concerti were part of it.

[Rod Corkin]

And it took you this long to discover he was a small town composer? My, you are a slow one.

Not quite, I listened to Bach but never thought he matched the hype, I always found the music pretty monotonous to be honest, as I do now. The thing was I was never really exposed to Handel's music other than a few decrepit old-school recordings of Messiah and like most people in that circumstance had a pretty low expectation. Only in the past 20 or so years has it really been possible to appreciate the broad scope of Handel's music, and this due solely to the increasing development of the HIP movement.

Of course in the literal sense Bach was a small town composer relative to Handel, who was a true man of the world. I think this is reflected in their respective music.

[71 dB]

Handel is nearly as great [as J.S.Bach], just in a very different way.

EXACTLY! 

[Josquin des Prez]

The thing was I was never really exposed to Handel's music other than a few decrepit old-school recordings of Messiah and like most people in that circumstance had a pretty low expectation.

Wait, that makes no sense. How could you possibly have had low expectations after being exposed by a masterpiece like the Messiah, old-school recordings regardless (some of which are actually very fine)?

Not only you had to wait 20 years before you "realized" (more like convinced yourself) that Bach was a worthless provincial hack, but you also took nearly as long to grasp the enormity of Handel even after being exposed to one of his finest masterworks. One can only be astounded by such obtuseness.

[Don]

I'm afraid I disagree, there is a reason why Handel was virtually forgotten for most of the 20th Century. Many of his greatest works did not even have a performing edition until the 1990s! His greatest work, Theodora is a classic example of this. I have no idea how you can decide Bach was the better composer, no idea. The music speaks for itself and sorry but Bach sounds like a small town composer next to Handel's dozens of epic vocal works. Bach's forgetful contrapuntal meanderings can't compare with Handel's supreme melodic and dramatic invention.

Here you go again - dumping on Bach to elevate your main man.  It's a very unbecoming aspect of your personality.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Similarly after 20 years of listening to Bach I discovered much to my surprise that it was in fact Handel who was by far the greater composer. The musical Establishment with its cult worship of Bach has a lot to answer for.

So somehow because it's Bach's name up in lights and not Handel's then Handel has been the victim of a conspiracy?

No...

Fascination with baroque opera/oratorio in general is a very recent phenomenon. Right? Handel included. If anything, it's the fact Handel wrote in such a niche field of music that has hurt his chances at exposure. Not that opera is niche, of course, but baroque opera is. Or, rather, was...

And we can throw other baroque composers in the same boat, like Rameau, Lully, etc... Opera specialists that spent much time in obscurity only to be revived in the wake of HIP.   

But none of this has anything to do with Bach. That Bach's music caught on at a much earlier date isn't due to a 'cult'. He just wrote in a wider variety of forms - and in numbers that dwarfed others. Because of this his music was much more likely to be disseminated throughout a music-loving population. Professional or whatnot.

The sheer diversity meant easier access. It's that simple.

If Handel had to wait his turn along with the rest of the baroque opera specialists - until the present day - it's no blot on any other composer's good name - nor their fans!!

Besides, Bach fans don't even know the meaning of the work 'conspiracy'...they're just too cuddly!

[Que]

May I point out that the topic of this thread is about recordings of Händel's music, and not about someone's Händel vs Bach hobby horse? 

Rod, as self proclaimed Händel champion you did not even bother to start a Händel recordings thread yourself. Maybe you could show the member that did bother some respect by keeping you anti-"Bach-cult" rant out of it?

Q

[FideLeo]

May I point out that the topic of this thread is about recordings of Händel's music, and not about someone's Händel vs Bach hobby horse? 

Rod, as self proclaimed Händel champion you did not even bother to start a Händel recordings thread yourself. Maybe you could show the member that did bother some respect by keeping you anti-"Bach-cult" rant out of it?

Q

I actually quite enjoy Rod's "anti-establishment" critiques because at least they do go some way in addressing the question why many of Handel's works received their world premiere recordings only recently.  (Ditto Vivaldi, Telemann, Lully, and so on. Not nearly so Bach.) But of course established members of this forum should feel free to express distaste if they find such discussions to be irrelevant to the topic.

[Rod Corkin]

Wait, that makes no sense. How could you possibly have had low expectations after being exposed by a masterpiece like the Messiah, old-school recordings regardless (some of which are actually very fine)?

Not only you had to wait 20 years before you "realized" (more like convinced yourself) that Bach was a worthless provincial hack, but you also took nearly as long to grasp the enormity of Handel even after being exposed to one of his finest masterworks. One can only be astounded by such obtuseness.

No, old-school Handel is not fine, it is bloody horrific. If you can't tell the difference I suggest it is you with the problem. After my experience with period instruments for Beethoven I came back to reassess Handel as HIP recordings became available, for only in recent years has a reasonable amount of good recordings of Handel been on offer. I was using the previous poster's comment to make humour but you missed that obviously. Forget 20 years. Maybe it's a language thing.

I knew Bach was not to my taste from the outset but I listened to it because on the number of comments I have read or heard to the effect that Bach was the greatest composer, greater even than Beethoven and certainly way ahead of Handel. I have yet to hear justification for this. I would say if in some fantasy we had to dispense with the music of either Beethoven, Handel. or Bach, that Bach's would be the least loss to the art of music.

[Rod Corkin]

May I point out that the topic of this thread is about recordings of Händel's music, and not about someone's Händel vs Bach hobby horse? 

Rod, as self proclaimed Händel champion you did not even bother to start a Händel recordings thread yourself. Maybe you could show the member that did bother some respect by keeping you anti-"Bach-cult" rant out of it?

Q

I am not self proclaimed anything. But if I talk when others remain silent that is not my issue. However my line in this discussion is relevant as it is only in recent years that there have been any Handel recordings!! And even for most of his major works there is usually only one or two recordings to chose from - which makes this topic rather redundant to be honest. For example if you want a recording of The Occasional Oratorio, or Alaxander Baelus, or Joseph and his Brethren, to name but three, then you have only one recording to choose from in each case. There is simply no choice when it comes to most of Handel's music, which brings me to my previous line of discussion in this topic. No 'ranting' Q, its a simple fact.

But go to my site if you want advice and samples of the best of what is on offer for Handel, be it opera or oratorio or cantatas or instrumental music. I'm not going to post all that stuff again here. I have already answered all of your questions there.

[Harry]

Rod, you could simply listen to Bach and Handel without thinking in terms of great, greater......
And there is no need to make a argument out of it.
That is not to say that you cannot disagree about what you like, or not.
Live and let live is my motto....

[Rod Corkin]

Rod, you could simply listen to Bach and Handel without thinking in terms of great, greater......
And there is not need to make a argument out of it.
That is not to say that you cannot disagree about what you like, or not.
Live and let live is my motto....

I like one, I don't like the other, for the most part at least, like you don't like opera. Thought processes don't come into it. I have never prevented anyone from disagreeing with anything so this is not an issue really either.

[Harry]

I like one, I don't like the other, for the most part at least, like you don't like opera. Thought processes don't come into it. I have never prevented anyone from disagreeing with anything so this is not an issue really either.

Well I made my first dips into serious opera allready, and some heavyweights, which would please Sarge & Marvin, in line to be listen at.
So despite my earlier protestations against opera, I am in the process of tumbling towards a genre that was foreign to me some months ago, nay even hostile.
Older recordings made me begin to like opera, and of course my operetta rage, which is still in the workings, was also instrumental I guess.

[The new erato]

So your operetta interest is instrumental I guess....