Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757)

[Sean]

Does anyone know if Belder uses a lower pitch than others? It sounds like it, unless it's just the harpsichord.

[SonicMan46]

Does anyone know if Belder uses a lower pitch than others? It sounds like it, unless it's just the harpsichord.

Put in a recent order for the first volume of Belder's performances on Brilliant, so will be an interesting listen; otherwise on harpsichord, I only have the 3 discs of Hantai playing about 50 or so of these sonatas (in no specific order and ranging from the beginning to the end). 

[Josquin des Prez]

Does anyone know if Belder uses a lower pitch than others? It sounds like it, unless it's just the harpsichord.

He uses a different tuning, like most modern HIP players. It really drives me nuts sometimes. I can really understand what it must feel like to have perfect pitch after listening to some of those misfits.

[Sean]

SonicMan, Belder will give fine returns to the Scarlattian; the great consistency of the music though is one of its mysteries and no proper chronology exists, all the manuscripts being lost, as you may know.

[Josquin des Prez]

SonicMan, Belder will give fine returns to the Scarlattian; the great consistency of the music though is one of its mysteries and no proper chronology exists, all the manuscripts being lost, as you may know.

My attempt at chronology is pretty good considering the odds. You can actually hear a difference between some of the early sonatas and the latter ones, not only in terms of form but also in the use of harmony. Some of his later pieces are really esoteric in this respect, but they still surprise for their impeccable deliberateness. Indeed, the clarity and sureness of his musical invention betrays an Apollonian personality rather then a Dionysian one. There's no orgiastic element in his work, no obliteration of consciousness, just an endless series of perfectly crafted melodic and harmonic developments. This aspect of his music goes well in hand with his personality as a grave and withdrawn man. The follower of Dionysus seeks to annihilate his individual consciousness in order to join with the group in a moment of catharsis. The Apollonian looks inward into the self, into the pure consciousness of the individual, unburned by all physical urges and needs. All individual genius is thus Apollonian, the Dionysian being more often expressed in the entertainment of the folk.

[Sean]

My attempt at chronology is pretty good considering the odds. You can actually hear a difference between some of the early sonatas and the latter ones, not only in terms of form but also in the use of harmony. Some of his later pieces are really esoteric in this respect, but they still surprise for their impeccable deliberateness. Indeed, the clarity and sureness of his musical invention betrays an Apollonian personality rather then a Dionysian one. There's no orgiastic element in his work, no obliteration of consciousness, just an endless series of perfectly crafted melodic and harmonic developments. This aspect of his music goes well in hand with his personality as a grave and withdrawn man. The follower of Dionysus seeks to annihilate his individual consciousness in order to join with the group in a moment of catharsis. The Apollonian looks inward into the self, into the pure consciousness of the individual, unburned by all physical urges and needs. All individual genius is thus Apollonian, the Dionysian being more often expressed in the entertainment of the folk.

Goodness me! That would take a few minutes of my typing to reply to properly, but that's a nice post there and it's great to read a view properly reflected on. Some of the sonatas harmonically are very peculiar indeed as you say but it's exactly his ability to look deeply inward to music's resources without bothering to change the overall formal design that makes Scarlatti so Dionysian: he's a subject-subject not rationalized Apollonian subject-object thinker, staying within and exploring the Self and its infinite possibilities. To say he's not orgiastic is a bit odd though- you must have some staid recordings... The Dionysiac is indeed universal but accessing it and experiencing it fully is the privilege of the few.

[DarkAngel]

 

Some great Scarlatti selection Cds avaiable........I also highly recommend Hantai, Staier harpsicord and Sudbin piano

What about the recent Lester/Nimbus complete set, sold in 7 volumes very cheap at Amazon sellers, does it surpass complete sets by Belder/Brilliant and Ross/Warner Classic which is now almost 20 years old? Samples sound quite promising........

[SonicMan46]

Some great Scarlatti selection Cds avaiable........I also highly recommend Hantai, Staier harpsicord and Sudbin piano

What about the recent Lester/Nimbus complete set, sold in 7 volumes very cheap at Amazon sellers, does it surpass complete sets by Belder/Brilliant and Ross/Warner Classic which is now almost 20 years old? Samples sound quite promising........

DA - I was not aware of the Richard Lester really 'complete' set of these works - will be quite interested in the comments from those who might have compared Lester w/ some of the other 'front runners'!   

[DarkAngel]

DA - I was not aware of the Richard Lester really 'complete' set of these works - will be quite interested in the comments from those who might have compared Lester w/ some of the other 'front runners'!   

Lester is even more "complete" than the Ross set since in the past 20 years many new Scarlatti works have been found and included in Lester's set (3 Cds worth of material)

I do not like the packaging choice by Nimbus.......6 CD plastic jewel cases which are very fragile and crack/break if you  breath on them too hard, have almost no room for booklet. Better choice would have been cardboard wallet box and sleeves for Cds, bigger better booklets 

[jlaurson]

I do not like the packaging choice by Nimbus.......6 CD plastic jewel cases which are very fragile and crack/break if you  breath on them too hard, have almost no room for booklet. Better choice would have been cardboard wallet box and sleeves for Cds, bigger better booklets 

Money, money, money. Hugely expensive, those cardboard wallets, especially if you don't produce the high volume Brilliant Classics does. But a pity all the same, you are right.

I got the Lester 2-CD "Best of sampler" and had such high expectations (variety of instruments, personal selection, inspired playing?) but was let down. His "Best of" doesn't sound better than any randomly chosen set from Belder's recording. When you listen to Ross' "Les plus belles" CD, you really want to buy the whole set. Here... you'd wonder.

[SonicMan46]

I got the Lester 2-CD "Best of sampler" and had such high expectations (variety of instruments, personal selection, inspired playing?) but was let down. His "Best of" doesn't sound better than any randomly chosen set from Belder's recording. When you listen to Ross' "Les plus belles" CD, you really want to buy the whole set. Here... you'd wonder.

Jens - after I read DA's comments on Richard Lester, I put that 2-CD sampler of his on my 'wish list' - received just laudatory remarks in the 'Penguin Guide' (as did the entire series - they seem to prefer Lester to Ross, their only other 'complete' listing); in addition, there are plenty of excellent online comments concerning Lester's performances of these works.

I do have the first volume (3-CDs) of the Belder works and do enjoy them, but have not bought into the entire package (still not sure that I want 3 dozen or so discs of these sonatas despite their reputation).  The Scott Ross set is $165 through Amazon, which is still cheaper (by about $20) than buying all of the Lester boxes at the same place - not sure if these Nimbus works are being offered cheaper elsewhere.

Of course, the entire Belder box is only $80 - certainly the best value!  Well, will do some patient waiting - I've got the 3 Hantai discs (and the Belder) for harpsichord & Pletnev & Sudbin for piano!  Dave 

[jlaurson]

Jens - after I read DA's comments on Richard Lester, I put that 2-CD sampler of his on my 'wish list' - received just laudatory remarks in the 'Penguin Guide' (as did the entire series - they seem to prefer Lester to Ross, their only other 'complete' listing); in addition, there are plenty of excellent online comments concerning Lester's performances of these works.

I do have the first volume (3-CDs) of the Belder works and do enjoy them, but have not bought into the entire package (still not sure that I want 3 dozen or so discs of these sonatas despite their reputation).  The Scott Ross set is $165 through Amazon, which is still cheaper (by about $20) than buying all of the Lester boxes at the same place - not sure if these Nimbus works are being offered cheaper elsewhere.

Of course, the entire Belder box is only $80 - certainly the best value!  Well, will do some patient waiting - I've got the 3 Hantai discs (and the Belder) for harpsichord & Pletnev & Sudbin for piano!  Dave 

Looks like you have a great collection as it is. I love those "happy freaks", and I'm glad having the Belder box as a reference, but I don't think it's an absolute necessity. (Very little really is...)

With Sudbin, Pletnev, Hantai you have the best of the best. Eventually add Horowitz and Pogorelich, definitely the "Best of" disc with Scott Ross. (Links below.)

Not essential, but neat, is Alain Planès' fortepiano disc.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/06/twang-twang-twang-scarlatti-with-alain.html

Ditto Landowska... you can hear the anti aircraft guns go off in the background in k499... but it is really more than just a historical document.

I'm looking forward to sampling Ottavio Dantone, but haven't yet.


Horowitz


Ross


Planès


Landowska

[DarkAngel]

I'll go ahead and get a couple of the later Belder/Brilliant 3CD sets, very very cheap..........
I not sure I like the idea of random switching of keyboards going from harpsicord to forte piano on some Cds,  will have to see how it works on the finished product.

Most reviews say Belder has a warmer sound and overall more relaxed performance style compared to Scott Ross, will know more soon.

I will admit sometimes I "cheat" on solo harpsicord performances......
Change sound EQ by reducing treble and slight bass boost to give a richer warmer less fatiguing sound better for listening over longer time periods 

[DarkAngel]

I'll go ahead and get a couple of the later Belder/Brilliant 3CD sets, very very cheap..........
I not sure I like the idea of random switching of keyboards going from harpsicord to forte piano on some Cds,  will have to see how it works on the finished product.

I got a few of the Lester/Nimbus and Belder/Brilliant releases, and I like the older Scott Ross performances better, and if you want a complete set I would definitely go for the Ross/Warner boxset as first choice. (or get 3CD Ross Anthology set at Archiv Music re-issue)

The Lester series is too brightly lit as a recording and not rythmically as engaging as Ross, not as much natural flow. Belder has a warmer sound and a slightly more relaxed style compared to Ross, more competitive than Lester for me and a 2nd choice for complete set. The multiple jumps to forte piano by Belder only occur in the later sonatas, overall works prettry well but the transition is a bit jarring, gives more variety

Scott Ross has an animated style with finely accentuated rythms that make these sonatas sparkle and dance, you can compare same sonatas by different artists and amazing how flat they can sound if you just play the notes and don't accent the rythms when needed..........makes all the difference

[Bunny]

I acquired this recording last year, and recommend it highly.  I don't know how she does it, but everything flows so perfectly.  Rhythm, phrasing, pacing, dynamics are all harnessed in the creation of a refined and yet robust interpretation. 

Zhu Xiao-Mei

[DarkAngel]

Also happy to report that MDT (UK) has finally shipped all backorders of sales from early December and I now have Volumes 1,2,3 of Pierre Hantai/Mirare harpsicord sonatas........they are the best I have heard by anyone. 



Bunny
I will look into Zhu Xiao-Mei, I usually find your recommendations very much to my liking..........
Are these piano versions

[Bunny]

Also happy to report that MDT (UK) has finally shipped all backorders of sales from early December and I now have Volumes 1,2,3 of Pierre Hantai/Mirare harpsicord sonatas........they are the best I have heard by anyone. 



Bunny
I will look into Zhu Xiao-Mei, I usually find your recommendations very much to my liking..........
Are these piano versions

Zhu uses a Steinway. 

I love those Hantaï recordings, they are just exemplary.  I hope you got them for a good price!  When he first started recording the sonatas, I thought he would be working on a complete set.  The first one was labeled "Vol. 1" even before any announcement had been made.  I hope he resumes recording them.

[Bunny]

The Scarlatti is still available used from Amazon France (where I picked it up) and also for download there.

Here is the link to the cd: http://www.amazon.fr/17-Sonates-Domenico-Scarlatti/dp/B00004VN1S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263700611&sr=8-2-catcorr

Here is the link to the download: http://www.amazon.fr/Sonates-pour-clavier/dp/B0025AEL1C/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1263700611&sr=8-2-catcorr

Please note: the cover picture for the cd listing is not correct.  The album also includes one track by Schubert (last track).  It may also be available on Ebay and from other European vendors.  It is worth a try, and in any event you can sample tracks at the download site.

[Coopmv]

While I have close to 150 LP's/CD's of various works by Vivaldi and probably have most if not all the recorded works, I find it somewhat difficult to justify getting Scarlatti's complete harpsichord works.  Scarlatti was clearly no JS Bach and he was also less accomplished than Vivaldi.  At any rate, how is the BC set by Peter Jan Belder?

[Bunny]

While I have close to 150 LP's/CD's of various works by Vivaldi and probably have most if not all the recorded works, I find it somewhat difficult to justify getting Scarlatti's complete harpsichord works.  Scarlatti was clearly no JS Bach and he was also less accomplished than Vivaldi.  At any rate, how is the BC set by Peter Jan Belder?

Don't know the Belder set, but Scarlatti's keyboard works are extremely fine, and he didn't have to be Bach to be a great instrumentalist and an innovative composer.