Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757)

[PaulSC]

The four Scarlatti sonatas selected here are a not-entirely-private joke; anyone picked up on it?

You've switched them back off?

(To clarify: they're the four sonatas W Carlos recorded, switched-on style...)

[Mandryka]

A very belated reply...

I meant the former: the great majority of individual Scarlatti sonatas are organized as binary forms. Regarding the pairing of these pieces, some or all of the sonatas are presented this way in the Kirkpatrick edition — sorry to be vague, it's been ages since I've seen it. I don't know if this was simply a novel idea of Kirkpatrick's, or if it follows from some theory that the pairings were intended by the composer. I do know that the earlier Longo edition arranges the sonatas rather arbitrarily into longer suites based on commonality of key. I suspect Longo would not have done this if he had possessed evidence for Kirkpatrick's pairings.

I have done quite a bit of listening and thinking since I made that post and I'd kind of guessed that that's what you meant.

I have very ambivalent views about HIP Scarlatti. Mostly I just find the music too soulless, and too geared to showing off the skills of the keyboard player. Too much like a firework display. Sometimes I like this -- I like Skip Sempe's Scarlatti CD for example. But at the end of the day I suspect he was a pretty shallow composer compared with Bach (and yes -- I know that he was an influence on Bach), or F Couperin or Froberger. I feel this even about the later sonatas -- 450+

And yet I do sometimes catch glimpses of humanity and depth. There is the extraordinary second record that Leonhardt made: this seems so very different from most  other records of Scarlatti sonatas I've ever heard, except maybe for Marco Farolfi and perhaps Enrico  Baiano. And  so much more meaningful and humane.



It's a very different matter for modern pianists like Gilels, who presumably don't care at all about historical authenticity and find in the music a means to express their own ideas. These  pianists can be deep alright.

[Karl Henning]

You've switched them back off?

(To clarify: they're the four sonatas W Carlos recorded, switched-on style...)

Oh, I understood directly, of course, and indeed you're right.

Curious to think it, now, but that was the first I ever heard of Scarlatti, or heard his music.

[Karl Henning]

. . . so very different from all other records of Scarlatti sonatas I've ever heard, so much more meaningful and humane.

Must say that when I read remarks like that, my first impulse is to suspect that the music has been anachronistically Romantified.

I mean, maybe not, but . . . .

[prémont]

Must say that when I read remarks like that, my first impulse is to suspect that the music has been anachronistically Romantified.

I mean, maybe not, but . . . .

Well, I own the Scarlatti recordings of the three harpsichordists in question (Leonhardt, Baiano and Farolfi - the last one acquired on the recommendation of Mandryka), and I do not think they romantifie the music at all, but rather express true baroque affects. As to Baiano he seems to have done considerations on the early baroque dramatic toccata-style (e.g. Frescobaldi, Picchi) - an impression I also get BTW from the playing of Pierre Hantaï.

[Mandryka]

I just tried to search for reviews of Leonhardt's DHM Scarlatti and found nothing on the web. The style's different from his first Scarlatti record, which admittedly I don't know as well, it hasn't created such a favourable impression with me.  It's would be surprising if no one commented on the DHM CD when it was released.

I shall try to revisit that first Scarlatti CD. It would be very surprising if Leonhardt's later style wasn't informed historically. Maybe others don't hear the same humanity that I hear in the DHM; maybe the effect comes simply from his choice of sonatas. I don't know.

[prémont]

I just tried to search for reviews of Leonhardt's DHM Scarlatti and found nothing on the web. The style's different from his first Scarlatti record, which admittedly I don't know as well, it hasn't created such a favourable impression with me.  It's would be surprising if no one commented on the CD when it was released.

I shall try to revisit that first Scarlatti CD. It would be very surprising if Leonhardt's later style wasn't informed historically. Maybe others don't hear the same humanity that I hear in the DHM; maybe the effect comes simply from his choice of sonatas. I don't know.

I know the CD, you call his second Scarlatti CD - the DHM. Other than that he recorded a few (three as far as I recall) of the sonatas for Telefunken, and I have never heard of others, but you may be better informed.

[Mandryka]

What I thought  of as the first Scarlatti CD is this one



It contains 14 sonatas, several  presented in pairs, all different from the ones on the DHM. But I see I've got things completely wrong. The first is the DHM (1970) and the second is the Seon (1978)

[Mandryka]

Well I listened again to the Sony Scarlatti and I thought it was wonderful, every but as wonderful as the DHM.

One thing I've learned from going to harpsichord recitals is that you really need to keep the volume down on your amp. That made  a huge difference to the impact of this CD. Maybe my previous negative reaction was caused by the nasty sound which results from playing it too loud.

[prémont]

What I thought  of as the first Scarlatti CD is this one



It contains 14 sonatas, several  presented in pairs, all different from the ones on the DHM. But I see I've got things completely wrong. The first is the DHM (1970) and the second is the Seon (1978)

Thanks Mandryka. I happen to own both the recordings, but I never listened to the Sony, because I thought it was identical with the DHM. This is the problem of getting lots of CDs in big boxes. One does not get the time to study all the content sufficiently.

[Ten thumbs]

A very belated reply...

I meant the former: the great majority of individual Scarlatti sonatas are organized as binary forms. Regarding the pairing of these pieces, some or all of the sonatas are presented this way in the Kirkpatrick edition — sorry to be vague, it's been ages since I've seen it. I don't know if this was simply a novel idea of Kirkpatrick's, or if it follows from some theory that the pairings were intended by the composer. I do know that the earlier Longo edition arranges the sonatas rather arbitrarily into longer suites based on commonality of key. I suspect Longo would not have done this if he had possessed evidence for Kirkpatrick's pairings.

The pairings in the Kirkpatrick edition are not his own but taken from the collections that were his source. That they are intentional is probable because composers who followed, such as Soler and Blasco de Nebra did write sonatas in two or even three movements.

[Brian]

In January pianist Joseph Moog is releasing a CD (on Onyx) of reworkings of Scarlatti sonatas by latter-day pianists, including Carl Tausig, Ignaz Friedmann, and Walter Gieseking.

[Mandryka]

In January pianist Joseph Moog is releasing a CD (on Onyx) of reworkings of Scarlatti sonatas by latter-day pianists, including Carl Tausig, Ignaz Friedmann, and Walter Gieseking.

As far as I know Friedman recorded just the Scarlatti/Tausig Pastorale. I had no idea he made his own transcriptions. Neither did I know that Gieseking transcribed Scarlatti.

Which of the Scarlatti sonatas were written for piano? Which sonatas need to be majorly transcribed to fit on one keyboard?

[Brian]

As far as I know Friedman recorded just the Scarlatti/Tausig Pastorale. I had no idea he made his own transcriptions. Neither did I know that Gieseking transcribed Scarlatti.

Which of the Scarlatti sonatas were written for piano? Which sonatas need to be majorly transcribed to fit on one keyboard?

I really can't answer any of your questions - Onyx hasn't released much info. I do know there is a Naxos album of all the Scarlatti sonata arrangements by Enrique Granados.

[prémont]

The pairings in the Kirkpatrick edition are not his own but taken from the collections that were his source. That they are intentional is probable because composers who followed, such as Soler and Blasco de Nebra did write sonatas in two or even three movements.

As far as I have understood the subject, it happens  frequently in the manuscripts, that one sonata is followed by another sonata in a similar key, but there is no concrete indication of any pairing.

[prémont]

Which of the Scarlatti sonatas were written for piano?

There is no authentic indication of this. We have to use our stylistical "common sense".

[Mandryka]

There's lots of Lena Jacobson playing Scarlatti on youtube, here's an example from of her way K87 -- I chose that one because it's so familiar.

https://www.youtube.com/v/m6akMXAZ3t8

I'm holding back from commenting until I've had a chance to think about what she does. I find Scarlatti's music very challenging.

[prémont]

There's lots of Lena Jacobson playing Scarlatti on youtube, here's an example from of her way K87 -- I chose that one because it's so familiar.

https://www.youtube.com/v/m6akMXAZ3t8

I'm holding back from commenting until I've had a chance to think about what she does. I find Scarlatti's music very challenging.

She is just playing rhythmically very free (could be anticipated). As I wrote about her live Buxtehude CD (DHM) I think she has some interesting ideas, but that she overdoes the point. The interpretation of Matteo Messori (link below) is also rhythmically free, but more balanced, and I find the expressive effect of his playing much more convincing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-L6_hDflw

[Mandryka]

I like that Mateo Messori performance. I've got his Brilliant box with AoF and Opfer you know,  but I haven't really begun to explore it yet.

There's an essay by Sergio and Maddalena Vartolo called John Sebastian Bach, Homo Universalis where they say someting very provocative about Scarlatti:

It is necessary to make radical changes to the structure  [of The Goldberg Variations]  for the interpretation on the modern piano of harpsichord repertoire,  although with great fascination when this is realised by a great performer: in this case Scarlatti takes on a light character that does not do justice to the  reserved and profound genius of this modest southerner whose vein of melancholy, so well underlined in the Portuguese portrait that shows his elegant aristocratic features, is enhanced by its intermixture with the austere spirit of Spain. (My italics)

Anyway that comment has helped me to get a bit clearer about what I want from Scarlatti, something I was not getting from most performances on record that I've heard. And it's helped me understand a bit better what Vartolo's up to in his Scarlatti recording, which had been a closed book to me until I read that.

[PaulSC]

in this case Scarlatti takes on a light character

What do they mean by "in this case"? If they mean performance on a modern piano, in general, then I think there are plenty of counter-examples where the effect is anything but light. (But there are also plenty of sonatas in which lightness is welcome.)