J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Harry]

I suggested the Foccroulle set, finding it superior to Alain III - not as to the chosen organs but as to interpretation.

In my view the Hänssler set is too uneven for a first recommendation.

I agree about the Hanssler set, I laid it aside for later listening, but it is definitely not a set to recommend at first. The unevenness can put you off, like it did me. I wonder if I would ever return to that set, but we will see

[Wakefield]

I'm usually quite strict in my preference for period instruments (probably just surpassed here by Gurn, who doesn't read this thread  ); but there are so many beautiful "neo-baroque" organs recorded in several Bach integrals that  it's hardly a decisive issue to me... 

[prémont]

I'm usually quite strict in my preference for period instruments (probably just surpassed here by Gurn, who doesn't read this thread  ); but there are so many beautiful "neo-baroque" organs recorded in several Bach integrals that  it's hardly a decisive issue to me... 

Well, carefully executed stylistic copies of baroque organs can be almost as good as original and reconstructed baroque organs, but the generic and uncharacteristic neo-baroque organ represented by certain Metzler organs and Marcussen organs e.g. does not always IMO do full justice to Bach's music, and in addition - as you probably know - I am not much of a fan of equal tuning for music written before ca. 1800. So to me it is not that simple, because many different considerations count.

[Baron Scarpia]

I suggested the Foccroulle set, finding it superior to Alain III - not as to the chosen organs but as to interpretation.

Well, this is annoying, when you find the Foccroulle set on Amazon.com, the link that would normally point to marketplace sellers with new and used copies links to a weird paperback score listed for more than $700. 

[prémont]

Well, this is annoying, when you find the Foccroulle set on Amazon.com, the link that would normally point to marketplace sellers with new and used copies links to a weird paperback score listed for more than $700. 

Gorio 1968 lives in England, so he would probably use this link, which works better:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Js-Bach-Integrale-Loeuvre-Dorgue/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521221479&sr=1-2&keywords=bach+foccroulle&dpID=61G7BKR3-6L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

or this:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7982174--bach-j-s-organ-works-complete

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I thought I'd do a scientific test, I just listened to Alain III and Foccroulle in BWV 656. Based on that sample, I wouldn't recommend either - Weinberger's  much more interesting to hear.

I'd forgotten how underarticulated Alain III can be, and how fast Foccroulle can be.

Good idea. I'm now doing the same thing, starting with Weinberger and then continuing w/Alain II, Foccroulle, Ruebsam II, Walcha II, Bowyer (who gets very little love, generally, but whose Clavieruebung III I find really good), H.Otto (from the GDR Silbermann organ cycle that's very dear to my heart), Isoir (whom I profess to love but am not sure would always pick in a blind comparison), Bryndorf, Hurford and Chapuis.

Weinberger is, on the surface, as understated and dry as Alain II's Marcussen organ is bright and the embodiment of the clichee of what a church organ should sound. (The latter would befit one of the grand Preludes and Fugues) But there's more to the surface, which is exactly Weinberger's point: he has a lot more stratification in his sound & voicing. I find that typical of Weinberger: ALWAYS easy to underrate at first (and often second) listening; rarely the out-of-the-box most impressive. Foccroulle does breeze through and iron out the thorny bits and makes it easier listening, if you don't want to concentrate on the music. But I do like the sound of his playing. Probably predictably Ruebsam II is the slowest of the bunch - muted, but beautifully articulated. Perfect for having your hair cut to. The older generation -- Otto & Walcha II -- tend towards faster tempos, too... which is a way of not making too much of the work, I suppose. I didn't think I'd particularly like the Walcha take, but I find that the stringency and momentum work well. Bowyer is also among the speed-demons (relatively speaking); furthermore, he rushes slightly, which is not becoming the momentum. And the tremulant effect seems like overegging the pudding. And he is one of the players who keeps one character for the whole piece. Otto's instrument can curl your toenails, if you are not used to it... in a way that's also a historic temperament... but not in the scholarly, on-purpose way. Still, there is something in the sour, tangy way and the crisp playing that I really like. Isoir voices even reedier (and lower) than Weinberger... his slightly more mobile tempo, after having heard considerably faster accounts, works well. Chapuis is similar but lighter and higher; rather intimate at first -- until he opens up in a v. neatly registered transition... making for a Jekyll / Hyde contrast. Isoir stays much more in the original, somber, muted character.  Hurford, in comparison, sounds almost ludicrous: He's nearly (exactly!) twice as fast as Ruebsam II! Virile it is, and I like the gnarly bass playing off the bright upper voices in the last third, but even so... Lady Bryndorf (Haenssler collection) reminds me a bit of Alain II - but with a quicker pulse and a more ingratiating instrument in the Trondheim Wagner organ.

I would probably never have picked that piece on my own, to compare these... so it was particularly rewarding to compare in a work I'm not very familiar with. Chapuis's gutsiness impressed me most, I suppose... followed by Weinberger & Walcha

A little less so: Ruebsam II and Isoir

A good deal less so: Bowyer, Alain II, Foccroulle, Otto

[Gorio1968]

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7982174--bach-j-s-organ-works-complete

Bernard Foccroulle 16 CDs for £38.67 is certainly interesting as I would have money left over for another Bach purchase.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Bernard Foccroulle 16 CDs for £38.67 is certainly interesting as I would have money left over for another Bach purchase.

Sometimes Weinberger is on sale for that & less on JPC.de; don't know how that comes out plus shipping but minus VAT.

And I'm seeing a Rogg set available, used, for twenty-something on Amazon.com, which I would grab, actually. Not terribly complete but very nice performances, I think.

[Gorio1968]

Sometimes Weinberger is on sale for that & less on JPC.de; don't know how that comes out plus shipping but minus VAT.

And I'm seeing a Rogg set available, used, for twenty-something on Amazon.com, which I would grab, actually. Not terribly complete but very nice performances, I think.

Thank you, I will search for them now.

[prémont]

And I'm seeing a Rogg set available, used, for twenty-something on Amazon.com, which I would grab, actually. Not terribly complete but very nice performances, I think.

And a particularly beautiful organ. But what about customs duties??

[Gorio1968]

Rogg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg


Used: £79.63
New: Currently unavailable

Weinberger https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ

New: £84.25

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Rogg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg


Used: £79.63
New: Currently unavailable

Weinberger https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ

New: £84.25

Oh, you're in the UK. Blimey.
As per Weinberger: Any CPO recording will usually be less expensive via jpc -- even when ordering from abroad -- because of how JPC/CPO (same company) interact with Amazon.

[prémont]

Rogg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B01KAPJW9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521238304&sr=8-1&keywords=L%27Ouvre+d%27orgue+The+Organ+Works+Rogg


Used: £79.63
New: Currently unavailable

Weinberger https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Organ-Works/dp/B001HBX8QO/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521238486&sr=1-8&keywords=Weinberger+Organ

New: £84.25

Weinberger 50 Euro:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321

Rogg  29 $:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-LOuvre-dorgue-Organ-Works/dp/B000027OAA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1521239080&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+rogg

Bur as I wrote earlier I would start with Foccroulle (alternatively Alain II)

Alain II:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7959716--bach-j-s-organ-works-complete

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Where does Stockmeier stand in the contentious hierarchy?

[Sammy]

Overall, I like the Hanssler set.  Actually, I didn't buy it as a set; I acquired most of the recordings when they were first released.  As I remember it, I enjoyed all the artists except for Kay Johannsen who does nothing for me.  Marcon, Zeher, Bryndorf, Hill and the others were impressive.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Reminds me of a nuroscience book I read explaining about why we like and continue to like the music we listened when we were 15-20 years old. Duran x2, Zeppelin, Beatles, Elvis depending upon your generation. The first music experience remains as a musical paradigm to assess the following music throughout your life, theorists say. Do we tend to favor the first rendition, or first interpretation, of Bach we have listened?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Where does Stockmeier stand in the contentious hierarchy?

The hierarchy being contentious, as you say, I can't answer but for myself: Near, but slightly below Weinberger -- which is to say: easy to underrate... but super-solid. My instinct, when I have an itch for a longer Bach organ music listening session, certainly brings me to his set before either of the Walcha's. It was my first such set, actually, acquired for next-to-nothing at Tower Records (I'm still thinking it was mis-priced; I kept the sticker and stuck it inside the box  ).

[Mandryka]

Most of them probably originated as triosonatas for chamber ensemble.

Weinberger says.

The six sonatas have come down to us in two important manuscripts, namely in an autograph and in a copy by Anna Magdalena and  Wilhelm Friedemann Bach (with entries by J. S. Bach himself). Bach is thought to have written the autograph at the beginning of his Leipzig period, between about 1727-30. He drew in part on already existing compositions for the organ or other instruments while also doing some new supplying of locking movements. . . . In the autograph, in contrast to most other organ works by Bach, we find a treatment of the three obbligato voices which is extremely nuanced in its articulation - an indication that the chamber presentation of the organ trio had an artistic goal as well as a pedagogical one.

[prémont]

Where does Stockmeier stand in the contentious hierarchy?

A sober rendition, not quite HIP, played on nice sounding Kreienbrink organs. At first he may sound unimaginative, but my experience is, that repeated listening pays very much.

[prémont]

Weinberger says.

It is true, that there are more indications of the articulation in the organ trio sonatas (particularly in the slow movements) than in Bach's organ music in general. There are almost as many articulation signs as in his "other" chamber music (S&P for violin, cello suites, sonatas for violin and harpsichord et.c.), and in my point of view this rather makes it even more likely, that the origins of these movements are chamber music pieces for instrumental trio.