J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Don't mean to act like beating dead horse, but a question remains.
Why do some players use sub- or non-optimal instruments for the recording?
A Difference in preference and aesthetic ideology- they think thier instruments are most effective?
Otherwise, a budget constraint?

[Mandryka]

Don't mean to act like beating dead horse, but a question remains.
Why do some players use sub- or non-optimal instruments for the recording?
A Difference in preference and aesthetic ideology- they think thier instruments are most effective?
Otherwise, a budget constraint?

An organist recently grumbled to me very bitterly about the cost of hiring the Martini Groningen for a recording, I don't know what the numbers are.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Don't mean to act like beating dead horse, but a question remains.
Why do some players use sub- or non-optimal instruments for the recording?
A Difference in preference and aesthetic ideology- they think their instruments are most effective?
Otherwise, a budget constraint?

I'm sure that most performers don't think of the instrument they use as sub-optimal. It's their choice... or their instrument. For one, each organ that one is not familiar with makes studying, performing, and recording a work manifold more difficult and time-consuming than operating on an instrument with which one is familiar with. Not having to find and voice each work for that particular instrument... not having to get to know and get around the kinks of each v. individual instrument and its acoustic. And you have to have the opportunity to rehearse sufficiently, which isn't necessarily given. So people make the best of what they have within reach and ability. Occasionally organists set out to record on instruments specifically because of the instrument and not because of their relationship with the instrument (Alain III would be such an example). The idea of sub-optimal is largely a question of our taste and the changing aesthetic (and research, perhaps).

[Mandryka]

Bram Beekman Orgelbuchlein at Middelburg. I think this is a great release! It has a more cathedral feel than the Orgelbuchlein from Vollenhove in his complete Bach, less chamber and less intimate, this may be the result of sound engineering.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Bought this today!

[Baron Scarpia]

Bought this today!

That one's been out of print since forever. I guess it's back. I've always been curious about it.

[Marc]

Bram Beekman Orgelbuchlein at Middelburg. I think this is a great release! It has a more cathedral feel than the Orgelbuchlein from Vollenhove in his complete Bach, less chamber and less intimate, this may be the result of sound engineering.

Yeah, I like it very much, too. But I still give my vote to the Vollenhove issue, partly because I (slightly) prefer the A. Bosch (1686) / F.C. Schnitger (1720) organ in Vollenhove. The De Rijckere et al organ in Middelburg is an interesting one, too, though, with its mixture of French/Flemisch and Dutch/German influences.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

That one's been out of print since forever. I guess it's back. I've always been curious about it.

Yes; Decca Italy did, a little while ago. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

I long, long had the twofer of famous works from Hurford - I remember a grand, organum plenum-heavy approach, but that may just have been a matter of the works selected.

[Marc]

Yes; Decca Italy did, a little while ago. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

I long, long had the twofer of famous works from Hurford - I remember a grand, organum plenum-heavy approach, but that may just have been a matter of the works selected.

You could be right about that twofer.

When I listened to the Hurford integral (some or even many years ago), I quite appreciated his way of playing, but when returning to it in the years afterwards I noticed a less and less positive (personal) 'connection' with the instruments.

Like f.i. Alain 2, Koopman, Vad, Preston, Stockmeier (and probably more), the former Hurford boxset was grouped in genre, which a.o. meant a whole lot of heavy free works on a limited amount of discs. I personally prefer the 'recital' grouping, with more variety per disc.
Not sure what the new boxset is like though.

[prémont]

You could be right about that twofer.

When I listened to the Hurford integral (some or even many years ago), I quite appreciated his way of playing, but when returning to it in the years afterwards I noticed a less and less positive (personal) 'connection' with the instruments.

Like f.i. Alain 2, Koopman, Vad, Preston, Stockmeier (and probably more), the former Hurford boxset was grouped in genre, which a.o. meant a whole lot of heavy free works on a limited amount of discs. I personally prefer the 'recital' grouping, with more variety per disc.
Not sure what the new boxset is like though.

The Hurford twofer, certainly this one:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7924717--j-s-bach-great-organ-works

is a broad selection from the integral, and not two of the CDs from the set.

And yes, I also dislike his choice of organs more today.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I knew that Hurford is not popular on the thread. Also, the Jacques Amade set has been scarsely discussed. Any info or thoughts on the set? Thanks a lot.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I knew that Hurford is not popular on the thread. Also, the Jacques Amade set has been scarsely discussed. Any info or thoughts on the set? Thanks a lot.

For what it's worth, I didn't mean my comment about Hurford as outright criticism or as a statement of dislike. I used to dig that "Best-of" Twofer. In fact, there was a time when I thought that that's the quintessential Bach sound. Granted, I've listened to a lot more Bach since then and my taste has become more Catholic (and occ. instrument-focused), but there's still a soft spot in my heart for that disc and I must say that I'm intrigued about the set myself.

[Marc]

I knew that Hurford is not popular on the thread. Also, the Jacques Amade set has been scarsely discussed. Any info or thoughts on the set? Thanks a lot.

So far, I find good things in (almost) every Bach organ disc or boxset that I have listened to.

Hurford doesn't belong to my first choices, but I can appreciate his consequent approach, which leans towards the no nonsense and a bit heavy side. But, as with some other performers, nowadays I just wish he had picked better instruments. I recall that, to my ears, some of his choices sounded downright unfit for Bach.

Amade: nothing especially wrong with it, nothing especially great. I do have the boxset, but only after a couple of months a discovered that a few tracks sounded 'scratched'. I dowloaded one of them, and that one sounded scratched/damaged, too. Which could mean that there's something wrong with the used mastertape. I'm sorry that I forgot which tracks on which disc/volume had that problem, though.

I dunno which integrals you already have, but if you want to go French, try to get Vernet or one of the Alains. If available (for decent prices), of course.

[prémont]

For those who are interested, the Hurford set here for 50 Euro's:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/johann-sebastian-bach-saemtliche-orgelwerke/hnum/7780128

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Thank you for the response. Very informative to a beginner like me. I got Vernet, Alain 2, Amade, Hansler, Preston, Corti, Isoir, plus Weinberger and Stockmeier on Spotify. I also like Beekman on Youtube.
I want the  Kooiman Corona set. Any realistic chance for a reissue in near future?

So far, I find good things in (almost) every Bach organ disc or boxset that I have listened to.

Hurford doesn't belong to my first choices, but I can appreciate his consequent approach, which leans towards the no nonsense and a bit heavy side. But, as with some other performers, nowadays I just wish he had picked better instruments. I recall that, to my ears, some of his choices sounded downright unfit for Bach.

Amade: nothing especially wrong with it, nothing especially great. I do have the boxset, but only after a couple of months a discovered that a few tracks sounded 'scratched'. I dowloaded one of them, and that one sounded scratched/damaged, too. Which could mean that there's something wrong with the used mastertape. I'm sorry that I forgot which tracks on which disc/volume had that problem, though.

I dunno which integrals you already have, but if you want to go French, try to get Vernet or one of the Alains. If available (for decent prices), of course.

[Marc]

Thank you for the response. Very informative to a beginner like me. I got Vernet, Alain 2, Amade, Hansler, Preston, Corti, Isoir, plus Weinberger and Stockmeier on Spotify. I also like Beekman on Youtube.

I must say, that's already an impressive list. Following my own taste (of course), then I would do a search for Helmut Walcha (a bit stiff, but considered 'mandatory', if something like that exists), Walter Kraft (more adventurous than Walcha, and some interesting organs), the 'Berlin Classics' set on (with a lot of good ole German organists on mostly pre-restored German Silbermanns) and Bernard Foccroulle (more flexible than Weinberger, historic organs).

As mentioned earlier, the Kooiman & pupils boxset (Aeolus) is a gem, but also expensive.

I want the  Kooiman Corona set. Any realistic chance for a reissue in near future?

From years ago, I recall some rumours about Brilliant Classics reissuing either Beekman or Kooiman 2 (Coronata) or even Kooiman 1 (only issued on vinyl before), but since they've picked Stefano Molardi to record an entirely new integral, I doubt that it will happen in the near future.
I've been so lucky that, around 2009/2010, when my renewed organ fascination started, there were still a dozen volumes available of the already OOP Kooiman 2. With the help of a good organ friend and the national library (Netherlands) I managed to grab them. It's a great set indeed, with only Die Kunst der Fuge as a minor disappointment IMO. It's been a long time since I last listened to that, but I recall a certain sameness in the chosen registrations. For instance, I have vague memories about listening to Cpt 1-4 and thinking "now come on, throw something different in!" But maybe my memories have run away with reality...

[Mandryka]

I listened to about half an hour of Amade's CU3. It's a nice enough organ and well enough recorded, Vertus in Champagne. I'm not sure he uses it very imaginatively, but the real problem is in the rhythm and the touch, which somehow never let the music get off the page and fly. Tempos are swift -- but no brio.

[Marc]

I listened to about half an hour of Amade's CU3. It's a nice enough organ and well enough recorded, Vertus in Champagne. I'm not sure he uses it very imaginatively, but the real problem is in the rhythm and the touch, which somehow never let the music get off the page and fly. Tempos are swift -- but no brio.

My own taste considered, Amade's mainly interesting for the completists.

Then there's this other French-speaking bloke, Canadian Bernard Lagacé, who's completed a respectful integral (from what I've heard so far), including Goldbergs, the WTC and other interesting stuff, but, as Premont mentioned earlier, unfortunately he uses a flat sounding organ thoughout the entire integral (Beckerath, Conception Church, Montréal, Canada). |Also very difficult to obtain, as far as I can see.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

[Que]

If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

The Kooiman & pupils set is on the bright and grand Silbermann organs, which is not to my personal taste in Bach.

Q