J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

I've not heard the Aeolus Kooiman in high resolution. At a normal bitrate it's not better recorded than many others.

Not many organ recordings bring a truthful sense of the cathedral into your living room, but there is this one

[prémont]

If you exclusively focuse on the sound of instrument and ignore the performance, what set/disc offers the best recording? Perhaps the set by Kooiman pupils? I understand the skepticism on the Amade's and Corti's instruments.

Do you mean the type of instrument focusing on the organ builder, or do you mean the recorded sound focusing on the engineer?

[Harry]

As to the Aeolus set with Kooiman and his pupils, I can attest to the sound. It is State of the art, but it requires of course matching equipment, if you have, this set is one of the best recorded ever.
In the olden days I recorded many a time the Schnitger organ in Groningen when a guest organist was in town. Just two microphones and a DAT recorder. I got excellent results with this set up. The placing of the microphones is all.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Do you mean the type of instrument focusing on the organ builder, or do you mean the recorded sound focusing on the engineer?

The type of instrument please. Sorry about my mis-wording. Which disc/set offers good/best instrument with good sound?

[Marc]

The Kooiman & pupils set is on the bright and grand Silbermann organs, which is not to my personal taste in Bach.

Funny how listening experiences can differ.

What's the definition of 'grand'... I mean, they're all rather moderate III/P and II/P (manuals/Pedal) organs, and, IIRC, none of them has got a 32 ft pedal stop.
I.c. brightness: I like brightness very much in Bach because it brings more clarity, but to my ears the French Silbermanns of this Aeolus set sound less bright that most Schnitgers or other North German/Dutch baroque organs.
IMO, the charms of the French Silbermanns are the warm sound and the beautiful 'granular' reed stops. I'm happy that I own a well-played and very well recorded Bach organ integral with this different, more 'Southern', baroque sound.

[Mandryka]

The type of instrument please. Sorry about my mis-wording. Which disc/set offers good/best instrument with good sound?

Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.

[Marc]

Ewald Kooiman, shortly before his untimely death, playing Bach on the Andreas Silbermann organ in Marmoutier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-IBlSJqV8

Added: (former) Kooiman pupil Ute Gremmel-Geuchen in Villingen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFJgzB3mXkg

[prémont]

Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.

What I also would suggest, when it is about organ sound as such (and not about interpretation).
I would add Koopman, who plays on a number of very important North German style organs.

[Marc]

Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.

Yeah, quite possible, after all they were all recorded just around Harry's corner.

I think that, spread across churches throughout Europe (and beyond), you can find a lot of beautiful organ CDs in very limited editions, played by skillful yet internationally unknown organists, many of them recorded by passionate music lovers.
When they're sold out, they're sold out for eternity.
(Amen.)

There's a world of unknown beauty hiding from all of us.

[Harry]

Yeah, quite possible, after all they were all recorded just around Harry's corner.

I think that, spread across churches throughout Europe (and beyond), you can find a lot of beautiful organ CDs in very limited editions, played by skillful yet internationally unknown organists, many of them recorded by passionate music lovers.
When they're sold out, they're sold out for eternity.
(Amen.)

There's a world of unknown beauty hiding from all of us.

Geesh I knew I should not have said this.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Sound great, especially the second one by the pupil!

Ewald Kooiman, shortly before his untimely death, playing Bach on the Andreas Silbermann organ in Marmoutier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-IBlSJqV8

Added: (former) Kooiman pupil Ute Gremmel-Geuchen in Villingen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFJgzB3mXkg

[Marc]

Geesh I knew I should not have said this.

Why?

If you think I was deliberately mocking you, then I can (re)assure you: I was not.

Once upon a time, I sang in a choir, and we were recorded several times by local music lovers, also with only 2 mikes and DAT or MiniDisc equipment. Of course, the choir was only a happy bunch of amateur students (with one very bad tenor), but the recordings sounded excellent. I also have a twofer of recordings of the Martinikerk organ, done by the lads of Martinikerk Avondtmusyck, and they're excellent, too. They also use just 2 mikes, probably more or less like you did.

It's just that your (more or less) new username challenged me to react to Mandryka's post, because he was specifically referring to Dutch organ discs. And many of those discs, whether you and I like it or not, were recorded just around your (and my) corner.

I'm quite happy to live around that corner by the way, with all those beautiful organs nearby, and great Bach (and other) performances at hand.
My guess is that you feel the same.

Happy Easter weekend!

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Thank you. I will buy them within this year!
Listening Weinberger nowadays. Some discs have very deep, excessive reverb and other have none at all. Weird.

Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.

[Marc]

Thank you. I will buy them within this year!
Listening Weinberger nowadays. Some discs have very deep, excessive reverb and other have none at all. Weird.

You'll find that with almost each and every set.
When a church has very dry acoustics, then you can hear that in the recording, unless the engineers decide to add some artificial reverb, which in almost every case results in a very unnatural sound.

On some discs, Weinberger plays organs in small village churches, but he also recorded a volume on the large Silbermann in the extremly 'spatial' Dresdner Hofkirche. Soundwise, that's a universe of difference.

I once attended a concert in the Dutch village Uithuizermeeden. Wolfgang Zerer playing a beautiful Hinsz organ in a church with almost no reverb. I didn't dislike it, but afterwards I had a rather severe headache (I'm an almost chronic sufferer from headache, which can be a problem when music is your passion ). The same with a concert of Elly Kooiman in Peize. The acoustics there were even drier/shorter, and she ended the recital with Bach's BWV 548. The plenum sound thundered into my ears without any mercy. When I arrived home I immediately dived into the bed, and the sound of the last bars, still thumping in my body, escaped through my belly button.

[Harry]

Why?

If you think I was deliberately mocking you, then I can (re)assure you: I was not.

Once upon a time, I sang in a choir, and we were recorded several times by local music lovers, also with only 2 mikes and DAT or MiniDisc equipment. Of course, the choir was only a happy bunch of amateur students (with one very bad tenor), but the recordings sounded excellent. I also have a twofer of recordings of the Martinikerk organ, done by the lads of Martinikerk Avondtmusyck, and they're excellent, too. They also use just 2 mikes, probably more or less like you did.

It's just that your (more or less) new username challenged me to react to Mandryka's post, because he was specifically referring to Dutch organ discs. And many of those discs, whether you and I like it or not, were recorded just around your (and my) corner.

I'm quite happy to live around that corner by the way, with all those beautiful organs nearby, and great Bach (and other) performances at hand.
My guess is that you feel the same.

Happy Easter weekend!

I forgot the smiley. Sorry about that.
I am actually very happy I made all those recordings and I still treasure them. I mastered and edited them in the USVA studio in Groningen, where I also did quite some recording, especially chamber music. But those days are over now, and I happily listen to efforts of others. We are both fortunate to live so near all those beautiful organs, and occasionally I am able to play also.
And I found your Harry's corner word play well found as related to the Martini church which is almost around our corner.
Happy easter weekend for you and yours too.

[Harry]

Thank you. I will buy them within this year!
Listening Weinberger nowadays. Some discs have very deep, excessive reverb and other have none at all. Weird.

Of course that is not weird
Every church has its own reverb, some long some short. Its very difficult to correct this in recording. Freiburg is notorious about 6-9 seconds if not more.

[Marc]

I forgot the smiley. Sorry about that.
I am actually very happy I made all those recordings and I still treasure them. I mastered and edited them in the USVA studio in Groningen, where I also did quite some recording, especially chamber music. But those days are over now, and I happily listen to efforts of others. We are both fortunate to live so near all those beautiful organs, and occasionally I am able to play also.
And I found your Harry's corner word play well found as related to the Martini church which is almost around our corner.
Happy easter weekend for you and yours too.

Ha, USVA. The old one, in the Oude Boteringestraat?
Happy memories for me, too. But mainly related to movie-watching and debating about literature (and too much drinking afterwards).

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I do not like the organ recordings without reverb, and I thought that it was typical of a novice. Somehow I assumed that connoisseurs tend to prefer dry recordings of organ without reverb. But you appear to be otherwise. 

You'll find that with almost each and every set.
When a church has very dry acoustics, then you can hear that in the recording, unless the engineers decide to add some artificial reverb, which in almost every case results in a very unnatural sound.

On some discs, Weinberger plays organs in small village churches, but he also recorded a volume on the large Silbermann in the extremly 'spatial' Dresdner Hofkirche. Soundwise, that's a universe of difference.

I once attended a concert in the Dutch village Uithuizermeeden. Wolfgang Zerer playing a beautiful Hinsz organ in a church with almost no reverb. I didn't dislike it, but afterwards I had a rather severe headache (I'm an almost chronic sufferer from headache, which can be a problem when music is your passion ). The same with a concert of Elly Kooiman in Peize. The acoustics there were even drier/shorter, and she ended the recital with Bach's BWV 548. The plenum sound thundered into my ears without any mercy. When I arrived home I immediately dived into the bed, and the sound of the last bars, still thumping in my body, escaped through my belly button.

[Marc]

I do not like the organ recordings without reverb, and I thought that it was typical of a novice. Somehow I assumed that connoisseurs tend to prefer dry recordings of organ without reverb. But you appear to be otherwise.

It depends... I'm very fond of the earlier mentioned instruments in Uithuizermeeden and Peize. And, at home, I'm in control of the volume.

Harry mentioned Freiberg (I think he meant the grand G. Silbermann in the Domkirche), which is indeed a large beast in a spatial cathedral.
In recordings, I recall a spatial sound in f.i. Alain 3, but a more closer or 'concentrated' sound on a (OOP) disc of Dutch organist Cor Ardesch. Comparing those two, I prefer the recording of Ardesch, because it shows more of the subtle beauties of all the various stops of this particular instrument, whilst the Alain recording presents a much more wide (and sometimes diffuse) sound. It's another proof that decisions of producer/engineer can be decisive; like how many microphones (of what kind) were used, what's the distance between instrument and microphones, et cetera.

EDIT: Since you apparently prefer The Big Baroque Cathedral Beasts, then Mandryka's suggestion 'Bach At Naumburg' (Robert Clark) could be a very good one for you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2JSgs6uUdQ

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I also like the organs played by Piet Kee, especially those at St. Laurence and Martini churches. Plus, I like the organs, if not performance, by Kei Koito.

Foccroulle, Alain III, Kooiman and pupils. But you know some of the out of print Dutch cycles - Wiersma, Kooiman, Beekman are well enough recorded too, presumably by Harry and his mates dangling a couple of microphones.