J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

On the album cover it says

UNDER BAROKEN VAR RETORIKEN   —DEN KLASSISKA VÄLTALIGHETSLÄRAN—  ÄVEN EN DEL AV MUSIKEN. LENA JACOBSON HAR GÄTT TILL KÄLLORNA OCH FRAMFOR WERK   AV J.S. BACH OCH MEDLEMMAR UR HANS STORA FAMILJ PÄ ETT SATT SOM AR. ANPASSAT TILL DE GAMLA MÄSTARNAS EGNA RETORISKA OCH LIVFULLA TOLKNINGAR

which according to Google Translate means

During the Baroque, the rhetoric was - THE CLASSICAL CHARACTERISTIC LEARNING - ALSO A PART OF MUSIC. LENA JACOBSON LOOKED AT THE SOURCES AND FORWARD WORK BY J.S. BACH AND MEMBERS OF HIS LARGE FAMILY IN A WAY THAT IS. ADAPTED TO OLD MASTER'S OWN Rhetorical AND LIVING INTERPRETATIONS

[Mandryka]

Gosh Howard, that's positively funereal. I feel as if I'm driving behind someone who is driving so slowly I wish to tell them, "The gas pedal is on the right."

I have absolutely no idea how the conventional tempos in this sort of music have come to be established.

[prémont]

I have absolutely no idea how the conventional tempos in this sort of music have come to be established.

Nor have I. As you know, Bach himself was told to choose rather fast tempi.

Of course every musician should choose the tempo which he/she feels is natural, but if the musician can't get the listeners to feel likewise, it is all rather pointless.

As to Jacobson, I agree that she has a rhetoric aim, but the playing is too mannered. A person speaking in this way would drive the listeners mad.

[Elk]

Thanks for the link to the Winsemius- a wonderful reading.

I have no idea about HIP performances, nor do I care. I have, however, been very impressed by many. It is not that I don't favour them, like my favourite of the Bach Cello Suites by Anner Bijlsma, but that the performance trumps all (sorry to use a word that is debased these days by the capitalized one).

I can understand the blandness of the Hurford on my computer speakers. In fact, many of the recordings to which I have listened linked by members here sound better on them than on my big system. There, the limitations of the recordings stand out and are far less enjoyable. My stereo system is ruthless, and I am an audiophile. One of the 'problems' of the Hurford is how closely it is recorded. On a small system, like my computer speakers, that is unattractive. On my big system in a largish room, that doesn't matter so much. What remains on both, however, is the absolute clarity of all of the voices in the performance. Furthermore, I bop (Is one supposed to bop to Bach?) to the music. It is infectious. I dance 

[Marc]

Winsemius, I meant. Toccata records are hard to find outside NL.

One can order the particular disc on this Dutch website:

https://www.boeijengamusic.com/en/j-s-bach-music-for-advent-christmas.html

It's a reliable site, owned by organist Petervan der Zwaag. They have a nice collection of music books and discs. The shop itself is in Leeuwarden, NL.

Van der Zwaag playing BWV 655:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ekU_Np6UvYk

Or try to contact the owner of Toccata:

http://www.toccata-records.nl/contact.html
http://www.toccata-records.nl/top-cd/92-trr99016.html

Maybe they ship outside NL.

[Marc]

I actually think this is not (too) bad! At least compared to other things she's done. A bit Gouldian, in how she "deconstructs" the whole thing. Her "rhetorical" style at her best - it is indeed very speech-like. Although it won't really be a recording I'd reach for when I want to hear 547.

BTW, another wonderful Winsemius performance of 547 live here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBmtItZQm9U

On the statelier side, still on the same Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMN_O932v8Y

Although Elk lists it as his top, I've been having difficulties with Hurford. I think it's more about the rather bland screechy neo-baroque organs he plays on, rather than the playing itself. On the other hand, his recordings on historical organs are wonderful.

Yes, I like Hurford, too.
But many of the modern organs he used in his integral leave me rather cold. Others might prefer them though.
AFAIK, Hurford's set has always been a popular one. Solid recommendations almost everywhere.

[Marc]

Thanks for the link to the Winsemius- a wonderful reading.

I have no idea about HIP performances, nor do I care. I have, however, been very impressed by many. It is not that I don't favour them, like my favourite of the Bach Cello Suites by Anner Bijlsma, but that the performance trumps all (sorry to use a word that is debased these days by the capitalized one).

I can understand the blandness of the Hurford on my computer speakers. In fact, many of the recordings to which I have listened linked by members here sound better on them than on my big system. There, the limitations of the recordings stand out and are far less enjoyable. My stereo system is ruthless, and I am an audiophile. One of the 'problems' of the Hurford is how closely it is recorded. On a small system, like my computer speakers, that is unattractive. On my big system in a largish room, that doesn't matter so much. What remains on both, however, is the absolute clarity of all of the voices in the performance. Furthermore, I bop (Is one supposed to bop to Bach?) to the music. It is infectious. I dance 

I bop on Bach, too.
I bop on many music, but Bach is my top bop.

[bioluminescentsquid]

Talking about a lot of things at once here

Speaking of way too mannered playing/speaking, Jacobsen reminds me of the hilariously pompous French recitation at the start of Baumont's Chambonnieres Pièces de clavessin recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRZqQXupvaQ

Back to the organ:

For tempi there are basic parameters, like the basic note value and how frequent harmonic changes are. And also imitating past performances, to a degree. But when it comes to organ, there's also the limitation of the room. You can't play too fast in an overly reverberant room or else everything will be lost in a blur, but playing too slowly in a dry room can bore the listener (even worse if it is all organo pleno). But it's never a hard rule (see Koopman on the Hamburg St. Jacobi Schnitger). I practice regularly on two organs, one in a moderately reverberant church, the other in a bone-dry auditorium and I have to re-think the piece on hand for each organ.

I think Jacobsen's tempo has a lot of potential, it's probably the "rhetorical" nonsense that is off-putting. But I'm actually warming to the performance after a few listens. Or maybe I'm just going crazy.

With HIP, I think Organ music is in a way more instrument-dependent than other music. You can easily switch between a modern cello and a Baroque cello for Bach's Cello suites, but it is harder to get a chorale fantasy by Tunder to sound interesting on an 1930 Skinner organ. The instrument dictates to a larger degree what can and can't be played on it.

As for Boeijenga, I've ordered from them before! Shipping can be a little expensive to the US though.

[Elk]

Bioluminescentsquid, thank you for your discussion of playing in different venues, the different approaches to each, and the appropriateness of different organs and spaces for different organ music. That all makes sense to me, a mere listener.

[Mandryka]

In the Jacobson, there's a lot of detail in there, but it doesn't just end up as a rag bag of details, she builds a climax over the duration.

As far as Premont's suggestion that no one speaks like that, it's not one person speaking, it's three! And at the same time - like kids may speak all at the same time and think nothing of it.

And as far as the speech rhythms go, she's swedish isn't she? Brits always think that Swedish sounds like she plays, there's this famous sketch by Benny Hill

https://www.youtube.com/v/CnkPhK7tmhw

I wrote to Lena Jacobson a few years ago asking for offprints of her papers on Buxtehude. She wrote back to say that it was so long ago that she just can't find them!   

[SurprisedByBeauty]

What remains on both, however, is the absolute clarity of all of the voices in the performance. Furthermore, I bop (Is one supposed to bop to Bach?) to the music. It is infectious. I dance 

Found myself very keen on the Hurford set -- more so than I ever expected -- when I finally went through the whole thing after snagging an Italian Decca copy. https://www.classicstoday.com/review/back-in-print-peter-hurfords-seminal-bach-survey-on-argo-decca/ [insider content]

Another snippet from the Bach-by-bike trip:



Here Playmobil-JSB is in front of the largest two-manual #SilbermannOrgan in the #Petrikirche in Freiberg - built w/pipes meant for the contemp. Dresden Hofkirche-organ (where they didn't fit, due to a measuring snafu)... which is why the Petri organ ended up being so relatively large.

[Mandryka]

Who'd have thought this beast of an organ could be made to dance like a fairy? This is maybe the most balletic set of trio sonatas I've heard. Koito produces performances where the accuracy, the virtuosity, is obvious, but nevertheless is modest, natural, organic.

[Marc]

Who'd have thought this beast of an organ could be made to dance like a fairy? This is maybe the most balletic set of trio sonatas I've heard. Koito produces performances where the accuracy, the virtuosity, is obvious, but nevertheless is modest, natural, organic.

Well, I've heard organists who made a beast out of this organ... and some who didn't. Always preferred the latter. Good examples: Wim van Beek, Vincent van Laar, Bernard Winsemius, Reitze Smits.
Last summer there was a pupil who managed to make the instrument sound like an ugly bear. Not my taste.

For the rest: IMHO, in general, the northern european/germans great baroque organs are less beasty than some of the more central ones, like Hildebrandt or Silbermann. But that could be personal.

[Mandryka]

Wolfgang Rubsam also recorded all the trio sonatas at the Martinikerk, but his performances are hardly dancing like a fairy. I can see from france orgue that Bram Beekman did one of them there, BWV 529

[Mandryka]

For the rest: IMHO, in general, the northern european/germans great baroque organs are less beasty than some of the more central ones, like Hildebrandt

If Naumburg is a beast, it's not a bear, it's a deer maybe

[Marc]

If Naumburg is a beast, it's not a bear, it's a deer maybe

Not a bad choice at all.

Don't get me wrong though. I really love the Naumburg organ. And I have a Cor Ardesch disc where he brings out the best of the great Silbermann in the Freiberg Dom. Just to mention one.
Good organists will make those beasts dance, too.

I've been at concerts in the Martinikerk where I was moving my body to and fro (not that expressively though) and dancing in my mind. Let's face it: much music is based on dances, baroque music is (for a great part) based on dances, and Bach's music is, too. I recall listening to Vincent van Laar's BWV 542 many years (maybe 7 or , it was a true ear-opener. As if someone was dancing light-footed upon a harpsichord and made it sound like an organ. Nevertheless, I still like the 'Gravität' approach too.

I.c. Beekman: his BWV 529 is really fine, but I rate him higher in Bach's chorale based works. There's a little stiffness from time to time in his free works. But the registrations are always very well chosen, and in whatever works he plays there's delicacy and also, no matter what 'beast' he is playing , audible counterpoint. His Bach is never fuzzy or messy. I love that.

[Alek Hidell]

I like this performance, too. Very playful:

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-547/

Please forgive a total layman question. I noticed that once he started playing the fugue, his page-turner was no longer standing there beside him. Why is this?

[prémont]

Please forgive a total layman question. I noticed that once he started playing the fugue, his page-turner was no longer standing there beside him. Why is this?

Probably he doesn't need him. Maybe Doeselaar doesn't want the stops changed for the rest of the piece, and maybe he knows the fugue so well, that he doesn't need to look at the score. I have not seen the video though.

[Alek Hidell]

Probably he doesn't need him. Maybe Doeselaar doesn't want the stops changed for the rest of the piece, and maybe he knows the fugue so well, that he doesn't need to look at the score. I have not seen the video though.

Thanks, premont. I didn't see the page-turner (she's female) change the stops during the prelude either, but I might have missed it (or the camera might have been focusing on something else at that moment - sometimes it shows what the organist's feet are doing). I guessed that maybe Doeselaar knew the fugue well enough to play it without the score, but I wasn't sure.

[Marc]

Thanks, premont. I didn't see the page-turner (she's female) change the stops during the prelude either, but I might have missed it (or the camera might have been focusing on something else at that moment - sometimes it shows what the organist's feet are doing). I guessed that maybe Doeselaar knew the fugue well enough to play it without the score, but I wasn't sure.

I think that this recording was part of a longer concert (the orchestra et al sitting in the church, too). Maybe she helped him with other works he also played at that concert, checked if everything was going well during this piece and then 'slipped' away at a convenient moment.
There's also a possibility that Van Doeselaar played the Praeludium and the Fugue at 2 different moments, with some other works (by the other performers perhaps) in between.
I.c. both of these possibilities, for this particular vid of just one work, they edited a 'total shot' of the church in the seconds between the two parts.

But it's just guessing.

I've seen Van Doeselaar play live, also sitting quite nearby, at the Martini church (Groningen) choir organ (a French instrument by Le Picard, mid 18th century) where he's plain in sight. He then played everything with the score 'on board'. In some occasions there was someone who helped him turning the pages or changing registrations. Sometimes he did that himself. He's fun to watch anyway, and he's a very friendly and enthousiastic man to talk to.