J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Thank you, I will check it out. I knew about this recording, but the novel title of the album didn't attract me very well. The GMG members' opinion of her previous recordings from minor label several years ago was not good, I recall. Did I misunderstand?

No, at least not well enough to say anything more than the sound is excellent. She always chooses good organs and she is always well recorded, I made some comments about her trio sonatas recently, and her Nivers, in both these she makes some bold decisions.  I think she's worth hearing.

[JBS]

I'm looking to explore another larger JS Bach organ box- I enjoy the Walcha and Alain second quite a bit. The other one I have is a reissue set from Isoir on La Dolce Volta (earlier one without Art of Fugue), and maybe an unpopular opinion but I found this a bit all over the place.

Any suggestions? I've been streaming Alain's analog cycle and like what I heard, I'm open to hearing about any in print issues. Thanks.

I am finishing up the Hurford set now. I particularly like his treatment of the chorales.

I strongly like Vernet...don't know the current availability (he is an Alain student). I also liked the Hanssler set, which uses a mix of performers.

[JBS]

Thank you, I will check it out. I knew about this recording, but the novel title of the album didn't attract me very well. The GMG members' opinion of her previous recordings from minor label several years ago was not good, I recall. Am I misunderstood?

I have it on the way to me, will post impressions accordingly.

[Mandryka]

Thank you, I will check it out. I knew about this recording, but the novel title of the album didn't attract me very well. The GMG members' opinion of her previous recordings from minor label several years ago was not good, I recall. Did I misunderstand?

Sometimes what she does makes you think. For example, her articulation in AoF makes the music sound unusually fluid. And the Nivers mass is unusually solemn.

[prémont]

Gerhard Weinberger and Alessio Corti.

Corti is a Rogg pupil, and one can hear that.

While Rübsam was an Alain pupil at the time of the recording of her second integral. I always wondered whom of these two learned most from the other one. None-the-less I think Rübsam's first integral of all existing integrals is the one, which resembles Alain II the most.

[staxomega]

The third uses well restored baroque organs and is well recorded. Can you not hear it on Spotify?

It's not on Spotify or Youtube.

Thanks all for the rest of the suggestions, I'll see about streaming them.

[Mandryka]

It's not on Spotify or Youtube.

Thanks all for the rest of the suggestions, I'll see about streaming them.

Well what I really think is that it's not a good idea to buy another complete Bach. If you want to stick with Bach, then it would be more  interesting to find the organ music which you're most excited by - sonatas, concertos, some of the big sets of chorales, toccatas or whatever - and explore different interpretations of those by people who haven't necessarily felt inclined to record all of his organ music.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Corti is a Rogg pupil, and one can hear that.

While Rübsam was an Alain pupil at the time of the recording of her second integral. I always wondered whom of these two learned most from the other one. None-the-less I think Rübsam's first integral of all existing integrals is the one, which resembles Alain II the most.

I will check Rubsam I from Philips. I thought his Naxos recording was idiosyncratic and I didn't like his piano and lute-harpsichord recordings either.

I think that Rubsam I was recorded before Alain II, but yes, still the former could exhibit the influence of Alain, thereby similarity to Alain II which was recorded after his work. Funny, the direction in influence and the order in recording are inverse.  However, you indicate that the influence could have been in both ways.  Is Vernet also her pupil?

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Sometimes what she does makes you think. For example, her articulation in AoF makes the music sound unusually fluid. And the Nivers mass is unusually solemn.

Thank you for your insights. They are very helpful.

[prémont]

I will check Rubsam I from Philips. I thought his Naxos recording was idiosyncratic and I didn't like his piano and lute-harpsichord recordings either.

The Rübsam I was rather individual when it was released, but many other organists followed up in a similar style, so to day it sounds not that individual - contrary to his Naxos recordings.

I think that Rubsam I was recorded before Alain II, but yes, still the former could exhibit the influence of Alain, thereby similarity to Alain II which was recorded after his work. Funny, the direction in influence and the order in recording are inverse.  However, you indicate that the influence could have been in both ways.  Is Vernet also her pupil?

Yes Rübsam I predates Alain II with a few years. Rübsam I is after all the more "radical" and imaginative of the two. In these ears it sounds most as if Rübsam influenced Alain more than vice-versa. You also have to remember, that Rübsam was no newcomer, when he began to study with Alain. The weak point of Rübsam I is the dull Metzler organ he used for the lions share of the integral, as have been pointed out several times in this forum.

Vernet is also Alain's pupil. He plays with a bit more "southern" temper than Alain.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Karol Golebiowski made an integral, or quasi-integral, work.

Thanks for the kind mention! I'm glad if it is of use to anyone.

Btw., I'm also working on including all the organs used on the sets: The information, where available, pops up on Mouse-Over.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Karol Golebiowski made an integral, or quasi-integral, work.

Oh, thanks much for that bit of info! I'll check on it at once.

[JBS]

Bach on historic Dutch organ by Koito on DHM. A new release.
[asin]B07P83ZP63[/asin]

On a second listen of this...I like it.  Choice of registrations, etc is varied.  She makes full use of the organ's possibilities.
One track (number 11)has strange recording noises.
The title may be a bit misleading...at least, several of the works included don't seem to me to be all that "famous".


ETA
Liked this well enough to order two more of her Bach CDs (the rest seem to be OOP)

[Marc]

On a second listen of this...I like it.  Choice of registrations, etc is varied.  She makes full use of the organ's possibilities.
One track (number 11)has strange recording noises.
The title may be a bit misleading...at least, several of the works included don't seem to me to be all that "famous".


ETA
Liked this well enough to order two more of her Bach CDs (the rest seem to be OOP)

I.c. the strange recording noises: those are the mechanical sounds of the organ. It's quite normal, especially with tracker action organs. In fact, I have a very weak spot for them. As if the instrument is a living creature, breathing and sighing. You can also hear these sounds in live concerts.
There are even digital organs who provide those noises as an 'extra' or 'bonus', opposed to the slick sound they usually provide.
Most recurring noises one can hear during organ concerts/recordings:
- wind machine
- tremulant
- pulling and pushing stop knobs
- key noises
- all kind of noises coming from the 'inside' of the organ... check this pic out, for instance (such a machine just won't stay silent ):



I did hear some non-instrumental sounds though, f.i. at the end of BWV 538: people talking, probably at the other end of the church, but you can hear them in the fading reverb sound.
For the rest: the sound quality of this disc is very good. Koito will never become my fav organist in Bach though, still a bit too much 'shots and knocks' to me, which especially disturbed me in the chorale based works. Nevertheless: it's an interesting recording IMHO. I don't regret the purchase.

I.c. the 'fame' of the famous organ works: maybe it was meant as '(this) famous organ works'. Which, indeed, is true. This organ works!

(I still think it's a pity that the Original thread title 'Bach's organ works' was replaced. )

[SurprisedByBeauty]

(I still think it's a pity that the Original thread title 'Bach's organ works' was replaced. )

Was it?  *

Hoary tale of one of my German profs in college was having received an essay that started thus:

"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 Children. He was an old master of the grand organ."


* Ah, yes, it would appear that it was and that changing the title that late into the game doesn't change the whole thread's title. But the working title, going forward, it would.

[dissily Mordentroge]

I have absolutely no idea how the conventional tempos in this sort of music have come to be established.

Some of us believe they never have been.Others imagine somewhere there's a Gospel According to Tempi.

[Marc]

Some of us believe they never have been.Others imagine somewhere there's a Gospel According to Tempi.

Some important questions IMHO, no matter from what period/composer the pieces are:

What are the specifics of the instrument one is playing?
How are the church/hall acoustics?

I suppose though, that, when playing for a 'studio' recording, the microphones can be placed in a way that suits the preferences of the organist, and reverb/acoustics can be adjusted.

[dissily Mordentroge]

What are the specifics of the instrument one is playing?
How are the church/hall acoustics?

So true but in an age where countless distortions of an original performance can be imposed due to recording technique and equipment used for replay the idea anyone commenting validly upon a particular tempi as wrong or right for any particular work is an absurdity.
Many organists when familiarising themselves with a particluar instrument and it's acoustics will have an assistant play a piece whilst they listen from a positions occupied by audience or congregation. A particular dislike of mine are recordings of tracker action instruments made with microphones so close to the keyboard they sound more like a knitting machine than a pipe organ. Some suggest this aberation is authentic. I suggest it's not even quaint. Even some organ builders get things wrong placing stops such as horizontal trumpet stops for instance too close to the keyboard. If an organist is silly enough to use these too often or for overly long periods it can degrade their perception of balance disastrously. Then we have recording engineers fond of placing 'ambience' microphones at an absurd distance from the instrument adding their contribution at far too high a volume making some instruments sound as if they're playing from the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

[Mandryka]

Re organ sound, I'm seeing that sound is a really major part of the appreciating a performance - just enjoying the noise. One that I've become completely addicted to, because of the sound, is this



I like to play it very loud on a system with enormous subwoofers!

[Marc]

So true but in an age where countless distortions of an original performance can be imposed due to recording technique and equipment used for replay the idea anyone commenting validly upon a particular tempi as wrong or right for any particular work is an absurdity.
Many organists when familiarising themselves with a particluar instrument and it's acoustics will have an assistant play a piece whilst they listen from a positions occupied by audience or congregation. A particular dislike of mine are recordings of tracker action instruments made with microphones so close to the keyboard they sound more like a knitting machine than a pipe organ. Some suggest this aberation is authentic. I suggest it's not even quaint. Even some organ builders get things wrong placing stops such as horizontal trumpet stops for instance too close to the keyboard. If an organist is silly enough to use these too often or for overly long periods it can degrade their perception of balance disastrously. Then we have recording engineers fond of placing 'ambience' microphones at an absurd distance from the instrument adding their contribution at far too high a volume making some instruments sound as if they're playing from the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

I still think it's mainly about preferences. If someone claims to know "how an organ (recording) should sound", than it's mostly his/her personal preference.
For instance: during summertime, I visit both the Martinikerk and the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL.
At a Martini concert, for my preferred 'Martini sound', I pick a place (if availabe) somewhere around the middle, not too close to the organ. Otherwise it sometimes just gets too loud for me. And the 'overall' experience is, to my taste, just beautiful.
In the Der Aa Kerk, which is a higher building with more reverb, I begin to prefer sitting close more and more during the years. The sound isn't as direct as in the Martini and not that loud, and it's also great to listen to the differences between Rugwerk, Hoofdwerk and Bovenwerk. You can hear those differences very well up close, and you can hear where the sound is coming from. That's just awesome.

Which brings me to another well-known baroque organ in NL: the Schonat/Duyschot/Hagerbeer organ in the Nieuwe Kerk, Amsterdam.
With that particular instrument, I prefer recordings where you can hear those differences between the 'Werke' more than recordings where the engineers have chosen for a more incorporated 'general' sound.
A good example of a beautiful recording on that instrument is when Bram Beekman plays BWV 688 "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" with the sound of the Bovenwerk floating as if it comes from above (Heaven).

I.c. the tempi and such: there are plenty of organists who might agree with the quote from earlier today:

What are the specifics of the instrument one is playing?
How are the church/hall acoustics?

Still, when all those organists were playing the same instrument, they would probably opt for different tempi, different stops and a different way of phrasing.
Yes, we can read books and articles by f.i. Ewald Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger about 17th/18th century tempi and way of playing (fingering, dicition, phrasing, (non) legato et al), but it's probably best to read it as an inspiration and as a serious attempt to find out what musicians and composers thought about those things in those earlier times. It's not meant (IMHO) as The Holy Baroque Tempi Bible. Their findings should not be used (IMHO) to 'punish' 'stubborn' artists who have their own ideas about it.