J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

I never get tired of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6-UXRic7Pg

Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.

[jlaurson]

I never get tired of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6-UXRic7Pg

Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.

It's difficult to believe that someone able to play this on an organ like that doesn't somehow live a better life than any of us who can't.

[Marc]

It's difficult to believe that someone able to play this on an organ like that doesn't somehow live a better life than any of us who can't.

Is this your Vox-humana speaking?
No human being is without mistakes .... 0:)

[jlaurson]

No human being is without mistakes .... 0:)

No, but Bach elevates through humility from which we seem to learn.*


*Except of course the evil masterminds bent on world-domination after playing the (non-Bach) Toccata on their basement pipe-organ.

[Sergeant Rock]

*Except of course the evil masterminds bent on world-domination after playing the (non-Bach) Toccata on their basement pipe-organ.

[prémont]

I never get tired of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6-UXRic7Pg

Willem van Twillert playing Jesus bleibet meine Freude on the Hinsz organ (1781) of the Martinikerk in Bolsward, NL.

Thanks, Marc. Very beautiful. An arrangement yes, but completely in Bach´s own spirit.

[prémont]

To day I opted for listening to some of Lionel Rogg´s first Bach cycle, the Oryx from 1962. It was recorded in a relative short period of time on the NEObaroque (much more neo than baroque) Metzler monster organ of Grossmünster, Zürich. CH. It vas engineered by the Swiss radio in mono sound, and the sound could have been better even for 1962. It was first released in the mid 1960es on LP. In the early 1970es it was rereleased on LP by Oryx in electronic stereo, the most odd stereo one can imagine, as the frequencies were divided in two groups, the high frequencies being located in the left channel and the low frequencies in the right channel.  A horrible way of manipulating with the organ sound. Completely unlistenable.  So I acquired an equalizer and respread the frequencies in equal measure between the two channels and recorded the sound to CDR with a CD-recorder. This is the shape in which I have preserved the cycle. I have never seen it released on commercial CDs.

Lionel Rogg was obviously partly inspired by Helmut Walcha in his choice of tempi, registrations and phrasing. His registrations are a bit more scholary than Walcha´s, but like Walcha he favoured 8´+ 2´ combinations and structure-based changes of registrations, f.i. the playing of pedal-free sections in preludes and fugues on another section of the organ. However he is also a bit more oldfashioned than Walcha, because he often in fugues - and more often than Walcha - changed registration several times in the run of the fugue, aiming at a post-romantic crescendo effekt, -  that is beginning the fugue on a few stops and ending almost in organo pleno. His articulation is more legato than Walcha´s and his touch makes a somewhat "softer" impression, but contrary to Walcha he is sometimes inconsequent as to articulalation f.i. in different presentations of a fugue subject.

I have uploaded af few examples from this integral,

Canzona BWV 588

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dy2wjnmmzyr/588.mp3


Fugue g-minor BWV 578 (the fugue the subject of which is´n but a mere variation of the main subjet of The Art of Fugue)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/g0nu3tgnjmm/578.mp3


Fugue d-minor  BWV 539 (arrangement of the fugue from the first Sonata for solo violin)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/za2ozn5zyzw/539b.mp3


And for comparison the fugue d-minor BWV 539 played by Rogg on a Feldberg pedal harpsichord in the late 1960es.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jjfhztjwyyn/539b pc.mp3

Hope you will enjoy.

[Marc]

To day I opted for listening to some of Lionel Rogg´s first Bach cycle, the Oryx from 1962.
[....]
I have uploaded af few examples from this integral,
[....]

Great! This is becoming the one and only Bach's OOP organ works thread! Thanks, Premont!

[....] Bach elevates through humility from which we seem to learn.*

*Except of course the evil masterminds bent on world-domination after playing the (non-Bach) Toccata on their basement pipe-organ.

Beware of French chief inspectors of Ze Sûreté ....

http://www.youtube.com/v/LEcsgbwBFRs

http://www.youtube.com/v/6j_2KMyUxso

[jlaurson]

L

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1

Nice instinct my friend!!! I got the copies of the soundrack from the ballet in the mail today...
Had I only listened to you right away, instead of first comparing Weinberger I, Weinberger II, Kay Johannsen, Koopman, Herrick, Bowyers, Marshall, Tillmanns, Fagius... it **is** Payne. (Perhaps not TOO surprising; it's the only one around long enough to have been part of that collection.)

[Marc]

[....]
Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1

Nice instinct my friend!!! I got the copies of the soundrack from the ballet in the mail today...
Had I only listened to you right away, instead of first comparing Weinberger I, Weinberger II, Kay Johannsen, Koopman, Herrick, Bowyers, Marshall, Tillmanns, Fagius... it **is** Payne. (Perhaps not TOO surprising; it's the only one around long enough to have been part of that collection.)

Dear Jens, don't feel too bad about it! I can imagine you had a nice time listening to some skilled Bach organists!
Besides that: it's a good journalistic habit, after one's attention has been drawn to a possible fact or source, to check it out for one's selves. After a rather short investigation, it was just some kind of a wild guess by me, really. Nice to hear though that this hasty guess was right!

[Verena]

Walcha in 1950/52 (Orgelbüchlein): "Helmut Walcha's groundbreaking mono Bach organ recordings completely revitalised" (?)
What do you think about this? http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM036.php
The price is really steep for an LP transfer, I think, though the sound is quite good.

[Marc]

Walcha in 1950/52 (Orgelbüchlein): "Helmut Walcha's groundbreaking mono Bach organ recordings completely revitalised" (?)
What do you think about this? http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Keyboard/PAKM036.php
The price is really steep for an LP transfer, I think, though the sound is quite good.

Check out this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Orgel-Werke-Helmut-Walcha-Bach/dp/B000E6UL6I
Walcha's 1947-1952 mono Bach recordings, at bargain price!
(Good remastering, too.)

[jlaurson]

Check out this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Orgel-Werke-Helmut-Walcha-Bach/dp/B000E6UL6I
Walcha's 1947-1952 mono Bach recordings, at bargain price!
(Good remastering, too.)

My understanding is that these are not at all remastered but 1:1 copies from the DG set.
In any case, I find Walcha's stereo cycle far more intriguing. "Groundbreaking" it may have been... but what else?
There are so many other sets--in retrospect--that I'd get before this one.

[Marc]

My understanding is that these are not at all remastered but 1:1 copies from the DG set.
In any case, I find Walcha's stereo cycle far more intriguing. "Groundbreaking" it may have been... but what else?
There are so many other sets--in retrospect--that I'd get before this one.

Of course the Amazon link doesn't oblige Verena to anything.
I only posted it to show that it's also possible to purchase the mono Orgel-Büchlein by Walcha in a different way. Low price, plus all the extras!

Sure, if one has the stereo set by Walcha, then one is able to claim that one's got the 'ultimate' view of this great organist. And indeed, there are many other sets (and single discs, let's not forget that) which are very interesting, too.

I have to admit that I dunno exactly all facts about the 'remastering' thing. All I know, is that the Documents boxset has got very good sound, considering the recording data. But maybe the single Orgel-Büchlein disc is even better ....

[Verena]

Of course the Amazon link doesn't oblige Verena to anything.
I only posted it to show that it's also possible to purchase the mono Orgel-Büchlein by Walcha in a different way. Low price, plus all the extras!

Sure, if one has the stereo set by Walcha, then one is able to claim that one's got the 'ultimate' view of this great organist. And indeed, there are many other sets (and single discs, let's not forget that) which are very interesting, too.

I have to admit that I dunno exactly all facts about the 'remastering' thing. All I know, is that the Documents boxset has got very good sound, considering the recording data. But maybe the single Orgel-Büchlein disc is even better ....

Thanks! At that price I think I'll try the early Walcha.

[jlaurson]

Sure, if one has the stereo set by Walcha, then one is able to claim that one's got the 'ultimate' view of this great organist. And indeed, there are many other sets (and single discs, let's not forget that) which are very interesting, too.

It's not about "claiming" and not about "ultimate", nor is that the psychologically obvious thing to do; much rather one would hail the more rare early cycle as the 'real' connoisseur's cycle and the re-make merely a pale copy thereof. (As you'll have people claim with the Backhaus or Arrau LvB Sonata cycles or Karajan (no.2 vs. no.4) and so forth.

In my case it's simply having listened to both and having been very, very much surprised how much better I liked the playing and the organs of the second Walcha cycle. Walcha II is in my top-3, probably. Walcha I--though still very interesting, good-sounding, and fine--probably my least favorite.

[Marc]

It's not about "claiming" and not about "ultimate", nor is that the psychologically obvious thing to do; much rather one would hail the more rare early cycle as the 'real' connoisseur's cycle and the re-make merely a pale copy thereof. (As you'll have people claim with the Backhaus or Arrau LvB Sonata cycles or Karajan (no.2 vs. no.4) and so forth.

In my case it's simply having listened to both and having been very, very much surprised how much better I liked the playing and the organs of the second Walcha cycle. Walcha II is in my top-3, probably. Walcha I--though still very interesting, good-sounding, and fine--probably my least favorite.

Jens, points taken.
I was reacting at your post, but tried to stay a bit 'objective' in my advice to Verena, and therefore I chose more general statements. Of course I realize that you yourself liked the 2nd cycle better because of your personal listening experiences. Apologies if that got kinda overlooked in my contributions.

About preferences between Walcha 1 & 2: personally, I find that a more complex thing and in this my preferences differ from yours. If instruments are concerned: for Bach, the Strasbourg instrument of the 2nd set (J.A. Silbermann, Saint-Pierre-le-Jeune) is a bit too 'friendly', soft and poetic to my ears. This impression is strengthened because of the rather spatial recording, which btw isn't very helpful for Walcha's polyphonic approach IMO.

To me, the Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar is a great instrument .... especially if bold playing is acquired, like many of the non-liturgic works. Sadly for Walcha, the organ sounded even (much?) better after the 2nd large restoration in the eighties .... I have some recordings of this instrument after the 2nd 'surgery', f.i. by Piet Kee and Leo van Doeselaar, that are quite stunning!

It's been a while since I listened to Walcha, but I do recall that I was very pleased with the Clavier-Übung III in the mono version. In general, I remember a more bold approach by Walcha in his first set, and maybe this is why I slightly (just slightly) prefer this one to the 2nd, apart of course from all the plusses that are delivered by the stereo readings.

Short side-step: funny thing is, whilst Walcha is worldwide celebrated mainly as a (Bach) organist, I think his polyphonic style works even better on the harpsichord.
I own this 'insight' thanks to this set, which I think is very worthwhile, even though nowadays we've grown used to more beautiful sounding instruments:



Well, for the moment, that's more or less all about my cup of Walcha's tea. But different people have different taste. Of course, you should keep on drinking yours!
(And plz keep on posting your interesting flavour tests, here or at your site.)

[prémont]

....comparing Weinberger I, Weinberger II, ...

You obviously know something, that I do not know.
Which recording is Weinberger I and which recording is Weinberger II ??

[Marc]

You obviously know something, that I do not know.
Which recording is Weinberger I and which recording is Weinberger II ??

Here's another hasty guess: Weinberger Box I, Weinberger Box II (since the integral of Membran Documents comes in two boxes).

[Coopmv]

Here's another hasty guess: Weinberger Box I, Weinberger Box II (since the integral of Membran Documents comes in two boxes).

Marc,  I believe I have the Weinberger Box II, which has 22 CD's (more than any other Bach boxes I am aware of) with the disclaimer that not all works have definitively been confirmed to have been composed by JS Bach ...