J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

Had another dazzling evening with Bach, Schnitger et al in the Groningen Martinikerk. A Bach-only program, played by Christiaan Ingelse, with a.o. all the 15 3-part Inventionen: lovely lovely lovely. Beautiful registration, and the E-minor & F-minor pieces (BWV's 793 & 795) made my eyes a little wet.
The concert was concluded by a firm interpretation of the famous G-minor Fantasia & Fugue BWV 542.

Heard Wim van Beek & Cor Edskes talking afterwards that the organist didn't have the possibility to practise on the instrument beforehand, which made their appreciation for his skills even greater.

Personally, I appreciated my first 'concert date' with organist Christiaan Ingelse that much, that I immediately bought 3 cd's .... oh my.

[Marc]

Ordered the two attributions of Martin Lücker to the complete Hänssler Bachakademie Edition: Scales from Weimar and Late Works from the Leipzig Period.

Since I recalled some not-so-positive reviews about Lücker's recordings from around the Bach Year 2000 (in the Dutch magazine Luister a.o., which, in those days, still offered a certain amount of quality ), I decided to turn to the library first.

Wait, I just found the review (magazine Luister of January 2000) .... in which Lücker is described as the weakest Hänssler link, compared to Johannsen, Marcon, Bryndorf and Zerer.
Despite the fact that he was a pupil of Leonhardt, Lücker's way of playing is described as being romantic, with too broad and slow tempi, old-fashioned legato playing and an excessive amount of registration changes and crescendi.

So, I've got some exciting listening in prospect!

Any opinions here on Lücker's Bach?

[prémont]

Ordered the two attributions of Martin Lücker to the complete Hänssler Bachakademie Edition: Scales from Weimar and Late Works from the Leipzig Period.

Wait, I just found the review (magazine Luister of January 2000) .... in which Lücker is described as the weakest Hänssler link, compared to Johannsen, Marcon, Bryndorf and Zerer.
Despite the fact that he was a pupil of Leonhardt, Lücker's way of playing is described as being romantic, with too broad and slow tempi, old-fashioned legato playing and an excessive amount of registration changes and crescendi.

Any opinions here on Lücker's Bach?

I have not listened to these two discs for ages, but listened through both to day. There are two problems: The chosen organ and Lückers playing.

The organ is a large (three manual/pedal - 55 stops) Rieger organ from 1990 (in St. Katrinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main). I think it was chosen because Lücker was resident organist there at the time of the recording (1998) - and still is AFAIK. Like many newbuilt German organs it has got a rather uncharming sound with some romantic flavour (compare with the large Rieger organ in the Ratzeburg Cathedral, which Peter Hurford uses for a number of the "great" chorale free works in his Bach set for Decca). Lücker´s registrations also tend to be romantic (e.g. his predilection for the 8´Gamba of the Schwellwerk) and we are in between presented for some strange un-Bachian sounds. And his frequent changes of registration is certainly very oldfashioned. But it is not true, that he uses oldfashioned legato playing. On the contrary his articulation is highly historically informed, as one would expect from a pupil of Anton Heiller and Gustav Leonhardt. Lücker´s tempi are most often dreadfully slow and his rhytm a bit stiff, and this lends his playing some pedestrian quality, which also lacks the authority of a Wolfgang Rübsam, even when he (Rübsam) is slowest. So you see, Lücker is not exactly my man.

[karlhenning]

Very interesting, thank you.

[Bulldog]

Ordered the two attributions of Martin Lücker to the complete Hänssler Bachakademie Edition: Scales from Weimar and Late Works from the Leipzig Period.

Since I recalled some not-so-positive reviews about Lücker's recordings from around the Bach Year 2000 (in the Dutch magazine Luister a.o., which, in those days, still offered a certain amount of quality ), I decided to turn to the library first.

Wait, I just found the review (magazine Luister of January 2000) .... in which Lücker is described as the weakest Hänssler link, compared to Johannsen, Marcon, Bryndorf and Zerer.
Despite the fact that he was a pupil of Leonhardt, Lücker's way of playing is described as being romantic, with too broad and slow tempi, old-fashioned legato playing and an excessive amount of registration changes and crescendi.

So, I've got some exciting listening in prospect!

Any opinions here on Lücker's Bach?

I found the "Scales from Weimar" a wonderful disc - great blend of muscle and poignancy.  However, the other disc was very disappointing; overbearing, too slow and turgid.  Still, I don't consider him the weak link in the Hanssler series - that honor goes to Johannsen.

[Marc]

I have not listened to these two discs for ages, but listened through both to day. There are two problems: The chosen organ and Lückers playing.

The organ is a large (three manual/pedal - 55 stops) Rieger organ from 1990 (in St. Katrinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main). I think it was chosen because Lücker was resident organist there at the time of the recording (1998) - and still is AFAIK. Like many newbuilt German organs it has got a rather uncharming sound with some romantic flavour (compare with the large Rieger organ in the Ratzeburg Cathedral, which Peter Hurford uses for a number of the "great" chorale free works in his Bach set for Decca). Lücker´s registrations also tend to be romantic (e.g. his predilection for the 8´Gamba of the Schwellwerk) and we are in between presented for some strange un-Bachian sounds. And his frequent changes of registration is certainly very oldfashioned. But it is not true, that he uses oldfashioned legato playing. On the contrary his articulation is highly historically informed, as one would expect from a pupil of Anton Heiller and Gustav Leonhardt. Lücker´s tempi are most often dreadfully slow and his rhytm a bit stiff, and this lends his playing some pedestrian quality, which also lacks the authority of a Wolfgang Rübsam, even when he (Rübsam) is slowest. So you see, Lücker is not exactly my man.

I found the "Scales from Weimar" a wonderful disc - great blend of muscle and poignancy. However, the other disc was very disappointing; overbearing, too slow and turgid. Still, I don't consider him the weak link in the Hanssler series - that honor goes to Johannsen.

Thank you gentlemen for your votes.
I'll just have to wait .... and listen to them myself, won't I?

Btw: the reviewer of that Luister magazine had not received all discs and boxes from the Brilliant, Teldec and Hänssler integrals, but he described Johannsen's articulation in the Trio Sonatas as very subtle, yet with a certain lack of colouring in his registrations.
This Trio Sonatas disc I don't have. I do have Kay Johannsen's Neumeister Choräle disc, which I think is OK, but also a bit 'lazy'.

[Bulldog]

Btw: the reviewer of that Luister magazine had not received all discs and boxes from the Brilliant, Teldec and Hänssler integrals, but he described Johannsen's articulation in the Trio Sonatas as very subtle, yet with a certain lack of colouring in his registrations.
This Trio Sonatas disc I don't have. I do have Kay Johannsen's Neumeister Choräle disc, which I think is OK, but also a bit 'lazy'.

In the Trio Sonatas disc, I consider Johannsen's performances quite heavy and slow with inadequate vibrancy.

[Marc]

Whilst listening to Lücker, two words came to my mind: guarded and withdrawing. That's how I would describe his playing in general .... not really my Bach, and this also goes for all the register changes.

I agree with Premont about the lack of charm of this bold Rieger organ. On my (modest) hifi set, the basses sounded extremely heavy.

But I could not say (yet?) that I prefer the Weimar disc to the Leipzig one. In a way, the heavy sound of the organ even seems to fit the mature pieces better. The Fantasia in C-minor BWV 562 f.i. begins impressive, but Lücker doesn't seem to be able to maintain the tension. The Fugue is OK again .... a pity that Lücker does not offer us a completion, like Wolfgang Stockmeier did (though playing this piece too fast IMO).
To me, the slow tempi make the 'doubtful' 8 Little Preludes & Fugues BWV 553-560 rather difficult to digest. And where's the mild melancholy in my fave (E-minor) piece BWV 555? The fugue sounds like a depressive funeral interlude ....
On the other hand, despite the rather overbearing change of registers, I liked Lücker's performance of the B-minor Fugue BWV 579.

[Bulldog]

Whilst listening to Lücker, two words came to my mind: guarded and withdrawing. That's how I would describe his playing in general .... not really my Bach, and this also goes for all the register changes.

In my review of the "Weimar" disc, I described his playing as majestic and growling with the juices of life.  Were we listening to the same guy?

[Marc]

In my review of the "Weimar" disc, I described his playing as majestic and growling with the juices of life. Were we listening to the same guy?

Well, it says 'Martin Lücker' here; on cover, in booklet and on disc .... 

Apparantly we share a love for the music of Bach, but, in some cases, we don't share preferences how to perform it.
Not a real problem to me, btw. The world would be boring without differences.

[Marc]

Marc, why don't you simply pm or email the links to your friends that you want to have it? Easy enough.

I uploaded one of my fave BWV 565 performances, played by Jan Jongepier, who died yesterday, at the Christian Müller organ of the Grote Kerk (Jacobijnerkerk) in Leeuwarden, NL.

Then I selected some organ friends, well, I found out I had to send it to almost 20 members.

So, here I go again, running the risk of getting punished severely .

I'm presenting at this forum a Bach performance by the late Jan Jongepier. A recording which is not officially available anymore, since it was part of a disc that was meant only to gain money for the Grote Kerk church restauration many years ago and is now OOP for a long time. I myself was so lucky to get a 2nd hand copy last year.

For the sake of whatever: Toccata & Fugue in D-minor, BWV 565. Jan Jongepier, organ. Enjoy!

http://www.mediafire.com/?wthhki0daxdrewu

[Marc]

Some pages ago there was some discussion about what (Marie-Claire integral) to purchase: Alain 2 or Alain 3?

Alain 2 got more votes, including mine.

And whilst I still agree, I must say that, for the last weeks, I've been enjoying Alain 3 tremendously. Now listening to the final fugue of the Toccata in C BWV 566(a) on the large Silbermann organ of Freiberg, and it's sounding magnificent. This piece surely can endure some gravity!

All in all, this set is a bit more laid-back than 2, yes it's true, but Alain handles these historic instruments very well for sure. I certainly don't regret the purchase.
A pity that she didn't include the Neumeister chorales, because her Orgelbüchlein attributions are quite good, too.

[Mandryka]

Koopman is very good IMHO (Teldec, see above for the boxset), and so are his compatriots Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) and Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), but .... alas OOP.
Another Dutchman, Leo van Doeselaar, recorded the 'grand chorales' (Große Orgelmesse) in a convincing way for Channel Classics, combined with sung chorales and choir pieces by (mostly) 16th/17th century composers. An interesting issue and still available AFAIK.
I also liked the smaller chorales (Kleine Orgelmesse) played by Gerhard Weinberger for his integral (CPO).

OOP, but still available at some online marketplaces: the two volumes by Edgar Krapp, which he recorded for Berlin Classics. My advice would be: get them, before they are out of stock.
Here are some possibilities:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Clavier-Ubung-Praludium-Grosse-Choralbearbeitungen/dp/B000006LIZ/
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000026HRE/

But you know, there are so many great recordings of these pieces. Even Simon Preston, who isn't my fave Bach interpreter, delivers great stuff on the historic organ of Trondheim (DG).
Right now it's very difficult, if not impossible, to pick my 'personal landmark recording(s)'. But there are some recordings that I really would not recommend, f.i. Kei Koito (Harmonic Records) and a disappointing shallow one by Masaaki Suzuki (BIS). (Although I do like Suzuki in Bach's vocal and harpsichord compositions, though.)

Probably Premont, Que, Antoine, Bulldog and others have some more (and better) interesting ideas about great performances of this my very favourite Bach collection of organ works. Man, do I love this third part of the CU!

Edgar Krapp is going down very well. I only got Vol.1 but I'm about to buy the other one.  I think he's astonishingly good in the slower preludes at the start, like BWV 671. I like the sound of the organ very much. Thanks for the recommendation.

You know, I've never been to an organ concert. Is there anyone from London reading this who can help me -- how do I find out about who's playing where? Which are the good organs here?

[Marc]

Edgar Krapp is going down very well. I only got Vol.1 but I'm about to buy the other one.  I think he's astonishingly good in the slower preludes at the start, like BWV 671. I like the sound of the organ very much. Thanks for the recommendation.

You're welcome!

You know, I've never been to an organ concert. Is there anyone from London reading this who can help me -- how do I find out about who's playing where? Which are the good organs here?

London, England?

Maybe this site has some good suggestions:

http://www.londonorgan.co.uk/

[Coopmv]

No, I'm fixing a more happy ending to this day:

BWV 593, borrowed from the Red Priest, played by La Grande Dame de l'Orgue:

I have most of Marie-Claire Alain cycle 2 on singles released on Erato ...   

[Marc]

No, I'm fixing a more happy ending to this day:

BWV 593, borrowed from the Red Priest, played by La Grande Dame de l'Orgue:

I have most of Marie-Claire Alain cycle 2 on singles released on Erato ...   

But this particular disc isn't part of any cycle. The 2nd integral was from the anolog area.
This one is a digital 1983 production. Alain made at least 4 digital Bach organ recordings in the eighties, before turning to historical instruments for her 3rd integral.

[karlhenning]

Make sure it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Organ-Works-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000RZOR2K/

Thanking you again on this, Marc, as I've now gone and pulled the trigger on it : )

[Marc]

Thanking you again on this, Marc, as I've now gone and pulled the trigger on it : )

Karl, you're welcome!
And if you have something on your sleeves about La Grande Dame des Orgues, don't hesitate to tell us.
I would certainly be interested to read it.

This is actually a secret, but you know what:
Bach's working organ happens to be one of my favourite threads.

[jlaurson]

Anybody keen on having a particular question answered by Sir Simon Preston and/or Martin Haselböck ?

[Marc]

Anybody keen on having a particular question answered by Sir Simon Preston and/or Martin Haselböck ?

I'm a bit hesisant with this, cause it's kinda silly question but .... this one has puzzled me since I bought the boxset: why did Sir Simon Preston not include BWV 668(a) in his Bach organ integral? It's a beautiful chorale, and one of Bach's best-known.
(Of course we could also ask: why no Neumeister Chorales, but .... one question is more than enough, I think. )