J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

Thanks. Offhand, do you know what source documents from Bach's time are used in support of the contention that the piece is "spurious"?

No.

We only know that, as is the case with a large amount of Bach's organ works, there is no authentic manuscript. The first copy is made by a pupil (Johannes Ringk, 1717-78) of a Bach's pupil (Johann Peter Kellner, 1705-1772).

Apparantly, this nowadays so famous piece was definitely not the talk of the musical town in the 18th century. I think that especially Albert Schweitzer (who called it a composition with great visionary power), Leopold Stokowski and Hollywood (Disney's Fantasia) made this piece legendary.

But the famous 19th century Bach biographer Philipp Spitta (1841-1894) already had doubs about the quality of the fugue: he considered it relatively weak compared to lots of other authentic Bach fugues (mentioning waves of tones that do not relate in any way to any theme in the piece).

FWIW: personally I think that the fugue of BWV 565 is one of the least interesting of Bach's organ output. Even after buying my first organ album (with M-C-Alain, somewhere in the mid 80s) I discovered that BWV 542 and 582 were much more exciting and interesting.

But, that's a personal matter of course.

Since you're a composer yourself: how do you rate BWV 565, compared to other (less) famous organ works by Bach? (Just curious. )

[Antoine Marchand]

Did you mean to type "...think that is a Bach composition"?

Well, as I have said before, I don't have any problem regarding the notion of being the Toccata & Fugue a transcription from an original for violin, by Bach or by another composer. My problem was with your statement about being a pacific matter.

Incidentally I've brushed on the topic about the T&F with Manze not so long ago and if he thought that it was Bach after all, he certainly didn't give any hint that that's what he believed. Simon Preston -- and although I might not necessarily cite him as a authoritative Bach scholar you'd think he'd know a thing or two about it -- made no effort trying to somehow 'salvage' the T&F as 'original-Bach-all-the-way'.

Manze on the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565:

"If BWV 1024 is dubious, BWV 565 is positively fallacious and is included here less for musicological reasons than as a treat for a palate overwhelmed by Bach's glories. Like BWV 1024, the Toccata and Fugue in D minor for organ was for many years attributed to Bach and went on to become of his best-loved works, despite the many doubts as to its authorship raised by musicologists. More worrying still, the piece bore telltale signs of being an arrangement for organ perhaps of a violin piece. Many reconstructions of a hypothetical original have been made, and one, by the violinist Jaap Schröeder, was published during the last Bach year in 1985. The version presented here makes no claims to authenticity, although it is closely based on the dynamic and chordal possibilities of the baroque violin as Bach used it. It is transposed to A minor and the Fugue indulges in the conceit of sounding polyphonic, literally "many voiced", without once employing any double-stopping. Instead, the impression of polyphony is given by careful handling of voice-leading and tesitura, rather than a bewildering succession of unidiomatically virtuosic, cat's-cradle chords."

If there is any resistance to the notion of T&F being an organ transcription based on a non-Bach work, it's only because of the emotional attachment that has been built with that piece over the last 80 years, and how it became the Hollywood-idea of 'quintessential' Bach.

This is not a problem for me. I am interested in Bach beyond the Dracula movies.

[Marc]

[....]
Apparantly, this nowadays so famous piece was definitely not the talk of the musical town in the 18th century.
[....]

Of course this is due to the fact that almost no work by Bach had been published during his own lifetime. I'm doing a wild guess, but I think it's limited to the 4 parts of the Clavier-Übung, 2 Ratswahl-Kantaten (one gone lost, the other being "Gott ist mein Köning" BWV 71), some songs of the Schemelli-Gesangbuch, the Canonische Variationen Über "Vom Himmel hoch", Das musikalische Opfer and, one year after his death, Die Kunst der Fuge. Thanks to several copies (mainly of keyboard music) his reputation remained rather high with 'music connaisseurs', but only in the first half of the 19th century his 'star' was slowly rising again, thanks specifically to Forkel's biography, the first print of the B-minor Mass and Mendelssohn's performance of the Matthäus-Passion.

[prémont]

To explain the authorship of the Toccata & Fugue for organ as a Bach transcription/composition, this explanation creates, at least, two new uncertain entities: (1) a supposedly (and lost) original for violin (by Bach) and (2) a supposedly original violin fugue by another (and unknown) composer, also lost.

We do not need more than a lost (original) violin fugue by an unknown composer. The assumption serves solely the purpose of explaining the - admittedly - violinistic character of part of the organ fugue. I do not find the toccata sections - particularly not the concluding toccata section - that violinistic. And I find Manze´s transcription of these toccata sections for violin very ineffective (because of the prevailing one-part texture, this can almost only be made in one way).

So we have an organ work transmitted in Bach´s name. On the one hand it has got some striking and original expressive qualities, on the other hand it displays some clumpsy, apparently post-violinistic, part writing in the fugue. Not completely what we consider "Bachian". But we must be aware that our idea of what "Bachian" means rests upon surviving composed music from his hand, and in fact we do not know anything about the character of his improvisations. Why could the BWV 565 not be a written-down improvisation by the young Bach, an improvisation based upon an existing violin fugue from another (anonymous) hand and with added toccata sections by Bach? What strikes me as being the most Bachian trait of the work, is the subtle way the opening toccata "turn" is derived from the theme of the fugue in an apparently improvised but in fact very considered way.  But this is only assumptions, probability versus improbability and so on. Fortunately the work does not get better or worse, whether it is by Bach or not.

[Antoine Marchand]

We do not need more than a lost (original) violin fugue by an unknown composer. The assumption serves solely the purpose of explaining the - admittedly - violinistic character of part of the organ fugue. I do not find the toccata sections - particularly not the concluding toccata section - that violinistic. And I find Manze´s transcription of these toccata sections for violin very ineffective (because of the prevailing one-part texture, this can almost only be made in one way).

So we have an organ work transmitted in Bach´s name. On the one hand it has got some striking and original expressive qualities, on the other hand it displays some clumpsy, apparently post-violinistic, part writing in the fugue. Not completely what we consider "Bachian". But we must be aware that our idea of what "Bachian" means rests upon surviving composed music from his hand, and in fact we do not know anything about the character of his improvisations. Why could the BWV 565 not be a written-down improvisation by the young Bach, an improvisation based upon an existing violin fugue from another (anonymous) hand and with added toccata sections by Bach? What strikes me as being the most Bachian trait of the work, is the subtle way the opening toccata "turn" is derived from the theme of the fugue in an apparently improvised but in fact very considered way.  But this is only assumptions, probability versus improbability and so on. Fortunately the work does not get better or worse, whether it is by Bach or not.

I don't have anything to object here, as all of these conjectures are plausible. I especially agree with your comment regarding the improvisatory spirit of this piece. I don't see difficulties to imagine this work as a shocking (sort of) "improvisation", for instance, into an audition for a new job. This "showy" nature was, of course, quickly noticed by Hollywood.   

[Karl Henning]

. . . Since you're a composer yourself: how do you rate BWV 565, compared to other (less) famous organ works by Bach? (Just curious. )

Well, it might be otherwise if I were an organist . . . but I am apt to think of the BWV 565 as an old friend, and I don't rate friends ; )  I may think rather more of pieces like the G Major Prelude and Fugue, BWV 550.

In an interesting bit of timing . . . an organist friend of mine, puzzled at himself for choosing such an extended piece for the postlude, wound up cutting out large-ish swaths of the Prelude from the a minor BWV 561 this past Sunday morning.  Cutting it out, and not feeling any repentance for the deed, either . . . .

[Marc]

Well, it might be otherwise if I were an organist . . . but I am apt to think of the BWV 565 as an old friend, and I don't rate friends ; )  I may think rather more of pieces like the G Major Prelude and Fugue, BWV 550.

That's a nice example, worth mentioning IMO. Every time I listen to it, it makes me very happy AND makes me think of the Preludes of Georg Böhm. Probably another youthful Bach-piece, too.

In an interesting bit of timing . . . an organist friend of mine, puzzled at himself for choosing such an extended piece for the postlude, wound up cutting out large-ish swaths of the Prelude from the a minor BWV 561 this past Sunday morning.  Cutting it out, and not feeling any repentance for the deed, either . . . .

Well, sometimes Preludes, whatever -ludes and Fugues were coupled even after the composer's death, so .... I certainly won't force your friend to say his penitential prayers.
(For instance: there is still no 'certainty' about who coupled the Prelude and Fugue of the massive BWV 546 in C-minor.)
In the case of BWV 561: some of the rushy passages could be stripped to create a more severe result? It's worth considering and I doubt if mr. Bach himself would mind.

Btw, I don't intend to cause another shock here .... but by some connaisseurs BWV 561 is considered spurious.
It's been attributed to Wilhelm Friedemann Bach and also to Johann Christian Kittel (1732-1809), one of Bach's most talented pupils. As an organist, Kittel was much admired during his lifetime, by a.o. Goethe.

[JaapT]

Hi, I am just new here, but noticed the discussion on the authenticity of the d-minor Toccata & Fugue as a Bach composition.
In search for an answer I came across this BBC radio documentary exactly about this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZWCSAWg4c

The antagonist in the documentary are Peter Williams (contra Bach) and Christoph Wolff (pro Bach). It seems to me that Wolff scores on points. He basically found new evidence for the reliability of the one and only source of the Toccata, namely Ringk. He also mentions that the notion for d minor, without flats is in line with an early Bach piece.

The attribution to Kellner that has been proposed by some seems a bit weird if one listens to Kellner's own Toccata in d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHpWov9T5M
This composition seem much more in gallant-style.

For the dutch among us, see also this link: http://www.robvanderhilst.nl/news/18/64/Over-Bach-s-beroemde-toccata/ (an essay by Rob van der Hilst).
What I don't like is that van der Hilst uses many arguments from Wolff but does attribute them to Wolff.

BTW I like a more recent recording by Foccroulle of this piece and several other Fantasias (on the Martini church organ in Groningen). Also Leonhardt has a very good (and one of the fastests) renditions IMO.

Jaap

[Geo Dude]

I've given Walcha's Bach set a few tries and I never seem to get very far (contrary to a few years ago).  It's just very...intense.  I'm guessing I'm not ready for Walcha yet and should seek another route into Bach's organ works and then come back to Walcha later.  Is the Claire-Alain set #2 a good one for this purpose?  (I.e. less intense)

[Opus106]

Hi, I am just new here, but noticed the discussion on the authenticity of the d-minor Toccata & Fugue as a Bach composition.
In search for an answer I came across this BBC radio documentary exactly about this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZWCSAWg4c

The antagonist in the documentary are Peter Williams (contra Bach) and Christoph Wolff (pro Bach). It seems to me that Wolff scores on points. He basically found new evidence for the reliability of the one and only source of the Toccata, namely Ringk. He also mentions that the notion for d minor, without flats is in line with an early Bach piece.

The attribution to Kellner that has been proposed by some seems a bit weird if one listens to Kellner's own Toccata in d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHpWov9T5M
This composition seem much more in gallant-style.

For the dutch among us, see also this link: http://www.robvanderhilst.nl/news/18/64/Over-Bach-s-beroemde-toccata/ (an essay by Rob van der Hilst).
What I don't like is that van der Hilst uses many arguments from Wolff but does attribute them to Wolff.

BTW I like a more recent recording by Foccroulle of this piece and several other Fantasias (on the Martini church organ in Groningen). Also Leonhardt has a very good (and one of the fastests) renditions IMO.

Jaap

Thanks for the link, Jaap, and welcome to GMG.

[Coopmv]

I've given Walcha's Bach set a few tries and I never seem to get very far (contrary to a few years ago).  It's just very...intense.  I'm guessing I'm not ready for Walcha yet and should seek another route into Bach's organ works and then come back to Walcha later.  Is the Claire-Alain set #2 a good one for this purpose?  (I.e. less intense)

Personally, I do think Marie Claire-Alain played in a more relaxed style.  But then I also do not feel Walcha is intense ...

[Geo Dude]

Personally, I do think Marie Claire-Alain played in a more relaxed style.  But then I also do not feel Walcha is intense ...

Walcha is probably not particularly intense if one is used to an organ, but for me it generates an effect of waves of sound pounding over me.

[Coopmv]

Walcha is probably not particularly intense if one is used to an organ, but for me it generates an effect of waves of sound pounding over me.

Coming from a Lutheran background, organ music is natural music for me ...

[prémont]

I've given Walcha's Bach set a few tries and I never seem to get very far (contrary to a few years ago).  It's just very...intense.  I'm guessing I'm not ready for Walcha yet and should seek another route into Bach's organ works and then come back to Walcha later.  Is the Claire-Alain set #2 a good one for this purpose?  (I.e. less intense)

Bach´s organ music - like all his music - is intense, so any successful interpretation has got to reflect this.

As to Alain II I do not find it less intense than Walcha´s recordings.
If I should recommend a relative (but only relative) more laid back approach, this would be Herrick, Stockmeier or Lagacé.

[Marc]

Hi, I am just new here, but noticed the discussion on the authenticity of the d-minor Toccata & Fugue as a Bach composition.
In search for an answer I came across this BBC radio documentary exactly about this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZWCSAWg4c

The antagonist in the documentary are Peter Williams (contra Bach) and Christoph Wolff (pro Bach). It seems to me that Wolff scores on points. He basically found new evidence for the reliability of the one and only source of the Toccata, namely Ringk. He also mentions that the notion for d minor, without flats is in line with an early Bach piece.

The attribution to Kellner that has been proposed by some seems a bit weird if one listens to Kellner's own Toccata in d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcHpWov9T5M
This composition seem much more in gallant-style.

For the dutch among us, see also this link: http://www.robvanderhilst.nl/news/18/64/Over-Bach-s-beroemde-toccata/ (an essay by Rob van der Hilst).
What I don't like is that van der Hilst uses many arguments from Wolff but does attribute them to Wolff.

BTW I like a more recent recording by Foccroulle of this piece and several other Fantasias (on the Martini church organ in Groningen). Also Leonhardt has a very good (and one of the fastests) renditions IMO.

Jaap

Hello Jaap,

Welcome to this nice thread and to the GMG board in general.

About BWV 565 and its recordings:
Foccroulle is very trustworthy in any Bach piece. And Leonhardt is convincing in this one as well. No wonder, since he's very much at home in 17th century keyboard works.
Personally, I also like f.i. Daniel Chorzempa (Philips or PentaTone) and Thiemo Janssen (MDG). The latter plays on the beautiful Schnitger-organ of Norden (Ost-Friesland, Germany).

About BWV 565 and its authenticity:
I admit I'm guilty. I blabberd about this subject far too much. So, I would advice to each and everyone: plz, for a real Toccata & Fuga in D-minor by a certain J.S. Bach, LISTEN TO BWV 538! It's so much better and impressive, both as a composition as well as a spectacle.

[....]
If I should recommend a relative (but only relative) more laid back approach, this would be Herrick, Stockmeier or Lagacé.

Damn!
You just outmanoeuvred me by mentioning Herrick.
He would be my choice to suggest a more 'soft-toned' and poetical Bach.

[Antoine Marchand]

If I should recommend a relative (but only relative) more laid back approach, this would be Herrick, Stockmeier or Lagacé.

Interesting trio. All of them share the ability of conveying a sort of moral courage and sincerity of expression, certainly uplifting. Neither of them is the star of the film, but all of them are great support actors.

[Geo Dude]

Thanks for the tips.  That said, I've decided I'm going to give Walcha more time and see how it goes.

...Plus, I found a trick that has worked pretty well:  Turn down the volume.

Out of curiosity, how does Rogg's style compare to Walcha's?

[Karl Henning]

I like the Walcha! (I've the monaural set.) YMMV, of course . . . .

[Geo Dude]

I'm sure I'll come to love the Walcha in time, Karl, but this music does require a period of adjustment.  For me, at least.

[Karl Henning]

Hey, for all of us there's some music (or performances) we need to warm to. Carry on! : )