J.S. Bach on the Organ

[milk]

I just meant to say that, orginally, an organ prelude was meant to 'prelude' the hymn singing by the congregation. Of course, it's difficult to imagine that Bach's extended preludes were also used for that practice .... but who knows ....

As such, a 'German Organ Mass' does not really exist. In this case, it's a collection of organ chorales taken from the Lutheran Mass (Kyrie, Gloria) and Catechism hymns. Some believe that the Duetti represent the four Gospels.

According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Another thing is that during the last decades of the baroque era there was a growing tendency to compose more melodic and galant music. Bach was heavily critized by the young Johann Adolf Scheibe (in Der Critische Musicus) for obscuring the beauty of music by an unnatural overabundance of old-fashioned artificial contrapuntal music-writing.
The very influential Johann Mattheson did agree with this and wrote about it, too (although not in the same one-sided negative wording).

Bach never responded to them .... but apparantly decided to let his music speak for itself, by publishing a.o. the Third part of the Clavier-Übung with first class contrapuntal organ music. In this polemical battle the treacherous easy Duetti might have played an important role, too.
Especially the Duetto in F-major BWV 803, written in A-B-A Da Capo form, might have been composed as a real 'tease'. It begins with a very melodic and harmonically beautiful A-section, completely in accordance with the prevailing taste and with the demands of Scheibe and Mattheson, but then Bach is deliberately 'ruining' everything in the B-section with heavy contrapuntal writing and wrenching harmonies.

This is fascinating stuff. I was recently looking at a website on which people were saying that Bach was just doing his job whereas Beethoven was making art. This seems incoherent since Beethoven's notions of the artist come out of a romantic discourse that perhaps didn't exist in Bach's time. But I'm curious if Bach was concerned with his legacy the way later composers would have been. Did Bach have an idea that people would be interested in his music 250 years later the way Beethoven might have? Did He have the same sense of his importance? I take it he worked on the AOF up until the time he died. That certainly wasn't a commission...

[Marc]

This is fascinating stuff. I was recently looking at a website on which people were saying that Bach was just doing his job whereas Beethoven was making art. This seems incoherent since Beethoven's notions of the artist come out of a romantic discourse that perhaps didn't exist in Bach's time. But I'm curious if Bach was concerned with his legacy the way later composers would have been. Did Bach have an idea that people would be interested in his music 250 years later the way Beethoven might have? Did He have the same sense of his importance? I take it he worked on the AOF up until the time he died. That certainly wasn't a commission...

Short reaction, I'm at the office right now.
Even if you put aside the notion of a certain 'legacy awareness' in Bach's mind, I personally do not agree at all with the idea that doing one's job is the same as just doing one's job. If your job is composing music, and you're doing a mighty fine job in doing so, then there's no reason to add this more or less derogatory adverb.

Maybe the Bach-related articles and books in the former German 'Democratic' Republic were right after all: Bach was a working class hero!!

[milk]

Short reaction, I'm at the office right now.
Even if you put aside the notion of a certain 'legacy awareness' in Bach's mind, I personally do not agree at all with the idea that doing one's job is the same as just doing one's job. If your job is composing music, and you're doing a mighty fine job in doing so, then there's no reason to add this more or less derogatory adverb.

Maybe the Bach-related articles and books in the former German 'Democratic' Republic were right after all: Bach was a working class hero!!

Yes that makes sense. Thanks for responding. Perhaps it's even frivolous to wonder what was in Bach's mind. Recently, I struggle with the lack of expressing certain things in words. And then I turn to Bach and find solace.

[Marc]

Yes that makes sense. Thanks for responding. Perhaps it's even frivolous to wonder what was in Bach's mind.

It's frivolous maybe, but not forbidden of course.
Trying to explain something about the true reasons for the publication of the 'Organ Mass', like I did yesterday, could be called frivolous, too.
(And even presumptuous.)

Besides that: personally, I think that Bach knew that his music was good enough .... of course all with the help of God.

He tried to get some of his music published. He was asked to compose music for rulers and noblemen, and he provided f.i. two carefully written-out manuscripts of resp. the Matthäus-Passion and the h-moll Messe, probably because he was proud of them and maybe also hoping that it would be preserved a long time and perhaps even be executed in the future.

Recently, I struggle with the lack of expressing certain things in words. And then I turn to Bach and find solace.

You're not alone.

[prémont]

According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Michael Ferguson has written something similar about the AoF, which should be an idealized example of the organ recitals Bach gave on newly built organs, when he tested them and improvised fugues upon a musical subject for about an hour or so.

But the CÜ III and the AoF are collections and was not intended to be performed in sequence - not even in theory, in the same way as the WTC or the six organ triosonatas was not intended for sequential performance. In our age of completeness a CD set with the CÜ III or the AoF constitutes in the same way a kind of collection, not necessarily meant to be played in sequence at one sitting. Just like the scores permit the performer to choose from the collections what he wants to play, we can choose from the CD what we want to hear.

[Marc]

What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

Great.
And even more sung verses are welcome!
Although I think that those chorales should be sung after an organ prelude, like Ton Koopman did in the Leipziger Choräle (Teldec) and Wim van Beek in parts of the Orgel-Büchlein (Helior).

Another option is the recording of the organ chorales, combined with Chorale arrangements for choir, as did Leo van Doeselaar (Channel Classics). He only played the pieces from the 'Große Orgelmesse' though.

And very beautifully sung chorales can be found here:



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Clavier-%C3%9Cbung-Koito-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000VVBDK4

Unfortunately, Kei Koïto's playing is not convincing enough (sometimes even way too mannered) to really enjoy this issue.

[Marc]

According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Michael Ferguson has written something similar about the AoF, which should be an idealized example of the organ recitals Bach gave on newly built organs, when he tested them and improvised fugues upon a musical subject for about an hour or so.

But the CÜ III and the AoF are collections and was not intended to be performed in sequence - not even in theory, in the same way as the WTC or the six organ triosonatas was not intended for sequential performance. In our age of completeness a CD set with the CÜ III or the AoF constitutes in the same way a kind of collection, not necessarily meant to be played in sequence at one sitting. Just like the scores permit the performer to choose from the collections what he wants to play, we can choose from the CD what we want to hear.

Just a little ADD-IT: in the quotation, I might have swapped Peter Williams for Christoph Wolff.
For the rest: even though these works weren't meant to be played in one sequence .... it never bores me to listen to the entire pieces.

[prémont]

Just a little ADD-IT: in the quotation, I might have swapped Peter Williams for Christoph Wolff.

Oh, they are like night and day.

For the rest: even though these works weren't meant to be played in one sequence .... it never bores me to listen to the entire pieces.

This was not my point. Even I listen to the entire work in sequence sometimes, but more often I listen to the prel.and fugue first, then the great chorales, then the small chorales and at last the duets - but that is just me.

[Marc]

This was not my point.

I KNOW!

[Mandryka]

There are some interesting issues around here. When you listen to CU3 or AoF you're listening to the music through the prism of interpretation. And the interpretation may use Bach's music to express something which needs the whole thing. I think Rubsam's AoF is like that. And maybe Friedrich's CU3.

To use Leonhardt's concepts, the latent text may spread across all the music in Rubsam's  AoF, and indeed unite integrate it. It may even give it a complex structure, with climaxes etc.

It's not a question of the original function of the music, or indeed the primary intention of JSB. In organ music, and especially in AoF, where there is so much interpretative discretion, it's maybe not surprising that imaginative performers sometimes use the music to express ideas. 

[Marc]

Enjoying Bach's organ again .... but it's a pity that this Denon (re-)issue got OOP:



Some of Bach's greatest hits (BWV 565, 543, 582, 542, 653 & 767), very convincingly played by Heinz Balli on the formidable Thomas Schott organ (Anno Domini 1630) of the Klosterkirche in Muri, Aargau, Switzerland. Great sound quality!

Here and there 2nd hand copies can be found though:

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Masterpieces-Organ-Heinz/dp/B000PHDNI4/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meisterwerke-f%C3%BCr-Orgel-Heinz-Balli/dp/B000025Y40/

[prémont]

Some of Bach's greatest hits (BWV 565, 543, 582, 542, 653 & 767), very convincingly played by Heinz Balli on the formidable Thomas Schott organ (Anno Domini 1630) of the Klosterkirche in Muri, Aargau, Switzerland. Great sound quality!

Here and there 2nd hand copies can be found though:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meisterwerke-f%C3%BCr-Orgel-Heinz-Balli/dp/B000025Y40/

Thanks. I have ordered an AmazonMP item.

[Marc]

Thanks. I have ordered an AmazonMP item.

I am, as always, interested in your opinion.

We'll meet again ....

[jlaurson]

Heard a ghastly organ recital on the Dresden Court Church's Silbermann organ... poor instrument.
But today I strolled in and happened upon a recital of the church's organist -- and how glorious it was, indeed.

[jlaurson]

Notes from the 2012 Dresden Music Festival ( 2 )


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_23.html

[Marc]

Heard a ghastly organ recital on the Dresden Court Church's Silbermann organ... poor instrument.
But today I strolled in and happened upon a recital of the church's organist -- and how glorious it was, indeed.

Jens, good for you  to give the instrument a 2n chance!

Spatial acoustics there, from what I hear on disc(s). To fully adapt to that, I guess organists need to do some solid practising beforehand.

[Marc]

A 'heavy' beginning of this Friday with listening to Bach's Toccatas, played by Ewald Kooiman on the famous Müller organ of the Sint Bavokerk, Haarlem, NL.

BWV 565 just finished, joyously played in true stile fantastico and now both organist and instrument are giving it all for BWV 566a (C-Major version).

IINM, Kooiman's 3rd integral (for Aeolus), played on baroque organs of the Alsace (France), which was brought to a standstill due to his unexpected death in January 2009, is still on for release. It's finished by Kooiman's pupils Gerhard Gnann, Ute Gremmel-Geuchen and Berhard Klapprott. It appeared there was some delay (a.o. whilst writing and preparing the booklets), but hopefully the 19cd-boxset will be out this year. It will contain 8 discs by Kooiman and 11 by his pupils. Certainly a release to look forward to!

[prémont]

I am, as always, interested in your opinion.

We'll meet again ....

Now having recieved Heinz Balli´ BachCD and having listened to it a couple of times, I conclude, that this is the sonically best recording of the Schott organ in Muri, I have heard, and it reveals that this organ is very well suitable for Bach´s organ works, when the right man sits at the keyboards. I would characterise the style of the interpretation as compact and a bit strict - it comes as no surprise to me, that Balli (born 1941) is a pupil of Marie-Claire Alain and Anton Heiller - I have heard Heiller in a recital in Copenhagen (ca 1970) playing the BWV 542 and 582 in as well as the same manner, which implies the use of plenum sound throughout with a minimum of stop changes and rather metrical tempo except for the conventional end-rubato. In the choralfree works I appreciate the high degee of monumentality of the gotic cathedral variety Balli achieves, and which is at least comparable to his teachers. In BWV 767 he displays of course the more soft stops of the organ, but I do not find his playing more flexible for that reason. Thanks for leading me to this recording, which I consider a valuable addition to my Bach organ collection.   

[North Star]

80 pages seems to be a long read; Marc, Premont, and others, too, what recordings would you recommend, in the HIP vein?


Thanks in advance, Karlo

[jlaurson]

80 pages seems to be a long read; Marc, Premont, and others, too, what recordings would you recommend, in the HIP vein?

Of Bach's works? Complete? Specific ones? HIP playing, Historical Instruments? Both?