J.S. Bach on the Organ

[jlaurson]

In short: he got rid of his beard...

surely not all of it...

, ,

but seems to have come to his senses as per 2011:

[Marc]

surely not all of it...

, ,

I know, I know. But that's not a beard, that's a moustache!
He was probably rehearsing for a part in the Barber of Sevilla.

[Mandryka]

Don't you think that the Naxos is often deeper than the Philips? I mean expressively, affectively. I don't think that's solely a consequence of the tempos, more likely the rhythms.

Has he said anything in print about his ideas about how to play Bach for Naxos? I wonder who and what  influenced him.

I think generally his later recordings are better than the earlier, in Bach and in Buxtehude.

[prémont]

Don't you think that the Naxos is often deeper than the Philips? I mean expressively, affectively. I don't think that's solely a consequence of the tempos, more likely the rhythms.

Has he said anything in print about his ideas about how to play Bach for Naxos? I wonder who and what  influenced him.

I think generally his later recordings are better than the earlier, in Bach and in Buxtehude.

His Philips set was a milestone recording at the time of release. It was the first well informed complete set, even if it (unfortunately) wasn´t played on period instruments. He said in an interview with Grammophone, that he had tried to apply Leonhardt´s Bach style to the organ.  Well Ewald Kooiman´s first set on period instruments was probably a close contender, but I do not know the exact date of its completion, and it was in practice impossible to get hold of outside Holland.

His second set seems to me more intimate (despite the full organ sound), more private , more individual, more romantic in expression. I do not think this necessarily means that it is deeper. As far as I know, he has not expressed himself about the style of this set  in words.

[Mandryka]

His Philips set was a milestone recording at the time of release. It was the first well informed complete set, even if it (unfortunately) wasn´t played on period instruments. He said in an interview with Grammophone, that he had tried to apply Leonhardt´s Bach style to the organ.  Well Ewald Kooiman´s first set on period instruments was probably a close contender, but I do not know the exact date of its completion, and it was in practice impossible to get hold of outside Holland.

His second set seems to me more intimate (despite the full organ sound), more private , more individual, more romantic in expression. I do not think this necessarily means that it is deeper. As far as I know, he has not expressed himself about the style of this set  in words.

I know it doesn't necessarily mean deeper -- that's why I tried to qualify my contention by saying that I meant deeper in terms of expression and affect.

If you can find a reference to that article where e talks about his relationshiip to Leonhardt I'd be keen to read it. Just typing in Rübsam into Gramophone magazine's archive didn't come up with it as far as I can see.

I wonder which aspects of Leonhardt's Bach style  impressed him -- tempo, phrasing, rhythm . .    When I get time I'll listen to their Art of Fugues side by side

[prémont]

I know it doesn't necessarily mean deeper -- that's why I tried to qualify my contention by saying that I meant deeper in terms of expression and affect.

While the first integral aims at the displaying of common affects according to the theses of the HIP movement and for that reason seems more impersonal, the second integral is a more private matter. His registrations are obviously more romantic, but I think in a way, that his feeling of tempo and agogics realizes the ultimate consequences of the baroque rhethoric style, interpreted in his very individual way, certainly blurring the border between baroque and romantic style. This is why his second set interests me a lot, in contrast e.g. to the odd Guillou recordings. Still I do not find Rübsams second set deeper that the first - just more individual, but also kind of romantic, because striving towards individuality is a romantic point of view. 

If you can find a reference to that article where e talks about his relationshiip to Leonhardt I'd be keen to read it. Just typing in Rübsam into Gramophone magazine's archive didn't come up with it as far as I can see.

The article was published 1977 or 1978. I read it that long ago. I think I reread it - stumbled over it by chance - at Grammophones homepage a number of years ago, but since then they have reorganized the page, and I can find it now.

I wonder which aspects of Leonhardt's Bach style  impressed him -- tempo, phrasing, rhythm . .    When I get time I'll listen to their Art of Fugues side by side

Probably the aspects which are the most distinctive of Leonhardt´s post 1960 Bach style: His articulation and his agogics, particularily the agogic accents.

[Mandryka]

Thanks for the reply premont.

I listened to the first handful of fugues from Rubsam (Philips) and Leonhardt (DHM) and I must confess I don't hear the similarities in either articulation or agogics. Rubsam's rhythms seemed rather more mechanical than Leonhardt's and GL seemed to break up the music into smaller units.  But I could be being obtuse: remember I don't play the music and the tempo differences are so striking that it could be masking more profound similarities from me.

[Marc]

I understand your point. In general, I find Rübsam's (Philips) fugues more shallow than Leonhardt's.
In fact: I hear more Alain in it, but the fact that Alain opts for a slower tempo has a positive effect considering expression.

[prémont]

I listened to the first handful of fugues from Rubsam (Philips) and Leonhardt (DHM) and I must confess I don't hear the similarities in either articulation or agogics. Rubsam's rhythms seemed rather more mechanical than Leonhardt's and GL seemed to break up the music into smaller units.  But I could be being obtuse: remember I don't play the music and the tempo differences are so striking that it could be masking more profound similarities from me.

All I wrote about Rübsam´s Bach integral was, that it is historically informed - meaning in his case first and foremost as to registrations, change of registrations (or rather lack of change), articulation, execution of ornamentation et.c. and to some degree as to choice of instrument (neo-baroque). And I quoted him for saying that his intention was to adapt the Leonhardt style. I did not write, that I think he succeded completely in this, and I agree with Marc, that Rübsam´s approach to agogics (probably the most subjective part of interpretation along with the tempo as such) more recalls his two most important teachers (Alain in particular - Walcha being the other) than Leonhardt, Rübsam´s agogics being very subtle compared to Leonhardt´s to put it mildly. And in 1977/78 I found Rübsam´s overall tempi just right. To day - being 35 years older - I prefer a slower basic pulse, but I do not think one can say, that a slower pace per se has got a positive effect considering the "quality" of expression.

[jlaurson]

...Rübsam´s approach to agogics (probably the most subjective part of interpretation along with the tempo as such) more recalls his two most important teachers (Alain in particular - Walcha being the other) than Leonhardt, Rübsam´s agogics being very subtle compared to Leonhardt´s to put it mildly. And in 1977/78 I found Rübsam´s overall tempi just right. To day - being 35 years older - I prefer a slower basic pulse, but I do not think one can say, that a slower pace per se has got a positive effect considering the "quality" of expression.

I know passively (i.e. when told, I nod knowingly) that Ruebsam was taught by Walcha, but I didn't think of that when I found that the overall effect of listening to Ruebsam reminded me of that of listening to Walcha (II). Ditto about the 'rightness' of tempi. I also found myself thinking of Backhaus' Beethoven, curiously.

[Mandryka]

I think he's quite often faster than Walcha. But I don't think that it's primarily  the speeds which make the later recordings deeper. It's the  rhythms.

One thing which makes me like the second Rubsam recordings is that sometimes I feel that the music is being created  in the act of performance. Art of Fugue is an example.

[prémont]

I think he's quite often faster than Walcha. But I don't think that it's primarily  the speeds which make the later recordings deeper. It's the  rhythms.

What do you exactly think of using the word "rhythm"?  The agogics?

[prémont]

I also found myself thinking of Backhaus' Beethoven, curiously.

Well, I think they share some kind of unmannered directness in their playing.

[Mandryka]

What do you exactly think of using the word "rhythm"?  The agogics?

Yes -- agogics. I realised I'd put it badly after posting but I've only just had time to come back to change it.

[Marc]

[....]
To day - being 35 years older - I prefer a slower basic pulse, but I do not think one can say, that a slower pace per se has got a positive effect considering the "quality" of expression.

Compared to Alain, I think that the fast Rübsam I lacks a certain Gravität, which works especially against him in the grand chorale-free works, like BWV 538, 544, 548 and so on.
Don't get me wrong though: I like Rübsam I a lot, and it would be boring if all ± 30 integrals would sound the same.

[Mandryka]

One place in the Naxos performances which I think is sublime is the  final variation of the Canonic Variations.

I like the Philips record of this too for the registrations. And I bet lots of people will prefer it because they want a more lively performance. But I think  that there are some special things going on in the Naxos.

[prémont]

Compared to Alain, I think that the fast Rübsam I lacks a certain Gravität, which works especially against him in the grand chorale-free works, like BWV 538, 544, 548 and so on.

Well, we suppose that Bach valued gravity, judged from his ideas about the upgrading of the Mühlheisen organ and from his approval of the Naumburg organ. Now I think gravity is a characteristic of the sound of the organ more than a way to describe the playing. Remember that Bach used to take the tempo rather fast. IMO the cause of the missing gravity in Rübsam´s BWV 538, 544 et.c. is, that the Metzler organ, he has chosen, lacks gravity, at least as documented by these recordings. Its low registers lack substance, f.i. the HW principal 16´ sounds more like a gedacht than like a principal. I have on the other hand not heard the organ live nor on other recordings, and I can not swear that the engineer may not be part of the problem, and in this context it is interesting to note, that Rübsam later became his own engineer. Whatever the cause - I do not think Rübsam´s playing lacks weight despite the rather fast tempo.

[prémont]

I think he's quite often faster than Walcha. But I don't think that it's primarily  the speeds which make the later recordings deeper. It's the  rhythms.

One thing which makes me like the second Rubsam recordings is that sometimes I feel that the music is being created  in the act of performance. Art of Fugue is an example.

Having relistened to Rübsam´s second AoF (Naxos) I find it again very individual bordering the romantic. His registrations are muddy (some undefined plenum often with reeds added) and he very often uses aliquotes (quint- or tertz-sounding stops) and even the tremulant to colour the sound, and there are some odd changes of stops. He also tries as much as possible to give each part its own colour. I think one can say, that he "orchestrates" the work in a romantic manner. His tempi are mostly slow - e.g. the Canon alla ottava ought IMO to have the character of a gigue - it should be played faster and with more rhythmic impetus. Often I feel that the affect he evokes is besides the point. The agogics are on the other hand surprisingly modest and feel rather natural, without that kind of exaggeration he displays on some other contemporary recordings. All in all this interpretation is a mixed pleasure.

[Mandryka]

Having relistened to Rübsam´s second AoF (Naxos) I find it again very individual bordering the romantic. His registrations are muddy (some undefined plenum often with reeds added) and he very often uses aliquotes (quint- or tertz-sounding stops) and even the tremulant to colour the sound, and there are some odd changes of stops. He also tries as much as possible to give each part its own colour. I think one can say, that he "orchestrates" the work in a romantic manner. His tempi are mostly slow - e.g. the Canon alla ottava ought IMO to have the character of a gigue - it should be played faster and with more rhythmic impetus. Often I feel that the affect he evokes is besides the point. The agogics are on the other hand surprisingly modest and feel rather natural, without that kind of exaggeration he displays on some other contemporary recordings. All in all this interpretation is a mixed pleasure.

What makes an affekt relevant? I'm totally confused about this. Suppose you could fit some allegory to the performance, to the sequence of affekts that Rübsam evokes,   a story of a pilgrim's progress or something like that, would that make the affective plan relevant?

Is the tremulant a romantic stop? I remember hearing it used sometimes in the Philips set, not in AoF but in some sets of variations. But I'd have to search to find it.

The agogics aren't as exaggerated as in some of the piano recordings (the inventions for example -- from memory.) But you once said that you don't like some of the Naxos organ  records for their agogics, and I remember wondering which ones you meant (especially since I've started to listen to his Leipzig Chorales a bit, and to even enjoy the trio sonatas.)

This whole romantic style in performance is difficult. For me a major element  of romantic style has to do with stressing lyrical beauty, smoothing over dissonances. I don't think Rübsam  does that, and that seems to me a major saving grace.

I'll think about tempos later.

[prémont]

What makes an affekt relevant? I'm totally confused about this. Suppose you could fit some allegory to the performance, to the sequence of affekts that Rübsam evokes,   a story of a pilgrim's progress or something like that, would that make the affective plan relevant?

Take Contrapunctus I or the first part of the unfinished fugue.  His soft registration and the tremulant make these pieces a kind of mourning music, which I think is foreign to the serene gravity I see in them. And  Contrapunctus I – XI are from Bach´s hand a suite of variation movements arranged in the order of growing complexity and musical intensity. Your supposed "story" behind the music is by itself a romantic idea.

Is the tremulant a romantic stop? I remember hearing it used sometimes in the Philips set, not in AoF but in some sets of variations. But I'd have to search to find it.

Yes, I think in the way he uses it for all parts and not just for a solo part (in a chorale setting e.g.). He achieves in this way a harmonium-like effect, not quite unlike the sound of the romantic organ.

The agogics aren't as exaggerated as in some of the piano recordings (the inventions for example -- from memory.) But you once said that you don't like some of the Naxos organ  records for their agogics, and I remember wondering which ones you meant (especially since I've started to listen to his Leipzig Chorales a bit, and to even enjoy the trio sonatas.)

I have become more accustomed to his agogics and what annoys me to day is more some of his extremely slow tempi f.i. in the Passacaglia.

This whole romantic style in performance is difficult. For me a major element  of romantic style has to do with stressing lyrical beauty, smoothing over dissonances. I don't think Rübsam  does that, and that seems to me a major saving grace.

As I wrote above I find first and foremost his way of registration romantic, but also the slow tempo is a romantic tendency. And lyrical beauty, well – listen again to Contrapunctus I and observe the romantic sweetness of mourning.