J.S. Bach on the Organ

[jlaurson]

Re this concerto, BWV 594, which got under my skin on Christmas day. I thought I'd listen to the two Rubsam recordings. The second is articulated very differently from the first. In the second there's more a sense of rhetoric as rhythm -- small units of music responding eloquently to each other. The first isn't broken up like that at all.

I thought I'd check to see if similar things are happening elsewhere so I listened to his two recordings of O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (BWV 618) from Orgelbuchlein. And yes, there's a much greater sense of musical components in dialogue and response in the Naxos. This music's a canon, so here the interaction is partly vertical. I don't think it's too unfair to say that in the Philips he basically just goes for the big tune and all the rest is just stuff in the background. The Naxos is glorious -- really special.

I don't know whether there is generally an increased interest in rhetorical ideas in the Naxos, whether this is something which really marks his later style. Neither do I know how to make all this fit with something I think premont once said: that when the Philips AoF came out Rubsam said he was influenced by Leonhardt's ideas in the DHM recording.

On that topic:

The Philips recordings often are mentioned to me as a favorite set to have.
These recordings reflect a very young, energetic and technically polished reading.
My second set on Naxos then was more based on performance practice awareness
of old instruments in general, not just organ.
Thus, tempi became slower, rhythm inflections had to happen somewhat in rhetorical manner
and more stylish ornamentation was included.

[Mandryka]

On that topic:

That's great!

Where's that quote from?

[jlaurson]

That's great!

Where's that quote from?

My inbox.

[Mandryka]

My inbox.

Ahh. Respect.

Tell him that this fan in the UK would love to hear him give a concert  . . . anywhere in Europe.

[Mandryka]

To get rid of all those happy Christmas feelings, I'm back to reality and BWV 686 again.

What about these two?

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

WARNING:
maybe sub-woofers are required!

Thanks for doing this -- I'll download and listen tomorrow or Sunday. 

[Mandryka]

I've listened to them all just once, Marc.

I really like the one with the file name S 0686 - 20121228-1.mp3. I like the growling bass and the way the player relishes dissonances. I like the decision he's made to go for blend rather than contrapuntal clarity: I think that makes the music emotionally more ardent. I like the way s/he makes the music breath, ebb and flow, texturally -- from passages relatively thick and weighty to passages less dense. I also like the way he tells a story with the music, the joyful dance at the end.

I saw something to like in all of them except S 0686 - 20121228-2.mp3 -- which I had difficulty staying with to the end. Didactic, I felt as though I was having the counterpoint demonstrated. . Even S 686 - 20110129-_.mp3 had one  saving grace which I found not unendearing  (a sort of bourgeois dignity)

I want to hear S 686 - 20110129.mp3. At first I was really impressed, but there's something he's doing with the articulation which bugs me, at least in the context of a comparative listen.

[Marc]

I've listened to them all just once, Marc.

I really like the one with the file name S 0686 - 20121228-1.mp3. I like the growling bass and the way the player relishes dissonances. I like the decision he's made to go for blend rather than contrapuntal clarity: I think that makes the music emotionally more ardent. I like the way s/he makes the music breath, ebb and flow, texturally -- from passages relatively thick and weighty to passages less dense. I also like the way he tells a story with the music, the joyful dance at the end.

I saw something to like in all of them except S 0686 - 20121228-2.mp3 -- which I had difficulty staying with to the end. Didactic, I felt as though I was having the counterpoint demonstrated. . Even S 686 - 20110129-_.mp3 had one  saving grace which I found not unendearing  (a sort of bourgeois dignity)

I want to hear S 686 - 20110129.mp3. At first I was really impressed, but there's something he's doing with the articulation which bugs me, at least in the context of a comparative listen.

Mandryke, thanks for your short review.

It proofs again that tastes differ, but that makes things more interesting.

Of the two 'new' ones, I definitely prefer S 0686 - 20121228-2! Apparantly this is how I'd like this psalm to be told: no escape for the listener, grim and stern, yet with enough breath in its playing (articulation, phrasing) and with modest agogics. It brings me in some kind of a trance. I must add that I also love the recording sound. Magnificent.
The one you like more (S 0686 - 20121228-1) is a bit too much for me. And so is the 'vastness' of the acoustics. For that reason I would have preferred at least less legato playing. As a result, I find this performance too opaque.

(I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.)

The 'bourgeois dignity' performance has been discussed before, and IMHO this one is quite something special: yes, too much legato, but very impressive in the end. It makes my head bow deep. Organist is (Dutch) Cor van Wageningen, the organ is the Schnitger et al of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL.
The one that bugged you is Werner Jacob on the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, Germany. I think it's OK, but also slightly 'middle of the road'.
You did not mention S 686 - 20110129-, which is an interpretation that I do not like. Organist is the Japanese Kei Koito, and from what I've heard so far from her Bach I can say that I don't understand her intentions very much. But of course this could be my 'bad'.

[prémont]

I don't know whether there is generally an increased interest in rhetorical ideas in the Naxos, whether this is something which really marks his later style. Neither do I know how to make all this fit with something I think premont once said: that when the Philips AoF came out Rubsam said he was influenced by Leonhardt's ideas in the DHM recording.

Rübsam referred in that interview to his Bach integral on Philips, and not to the AoF which wasn´t released at the time of the interview. And he also referred to Leonhardt´s general style, not just Leonhardt´s AoF..

[prémont]

(I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.)

Yes, of course. 

[prémont]

[quote Wolfgang Rübsam]
The Philips recordings often are mentioned to me as a favorite set to have.
These recordings reflect a very young, energetic and technically polished reading.
My second set on Naxos then was more based on performance practice awareness
of old instruments in general, not just organ.
Thus, tempi became slower, rhythm inflections had to happen somewhat in rhetorical manner
and more stylish ornamentation was included.

Yes, Rübsam´s Bach integral on Philips is youthful and brilliant, but compared to what was available at the time of recording (1976/77), it also displays a certain occupation with rethorical effects, which made the recording special and interesting for a young HIP enthusiast like me. Rübsam certainly outdid himself as to that regard in the Naxos set, but this doesn´t detract from his Philips set.

[Mandryka]

Mandryke, thanks for your short review.

It proofs again that tastes differ, but that makes things more interesting.

Of the two 'new' ones, I definitely prefer S 0686 - 20121228-2! Apparantly this is how I'd like this psalm to be told: no escape for the listener, grim and stern, yet with enough breath in its playing (articulation, phrasing) and with modest agogics. It brings me in some kind of a trance. I must add that I also love the recording sound. Magnificent.
The one you like more (S 0686 - 20121228-1) is a bit too much for me. And so is the 'vastness' of the acoustics. For that reason I would have preferred at least less legato playing. As a result, I find this performance too opaque.

(I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.)

The 'bourgeois dignity' performance has been discussed before, and IMHO this one is quite something special: yes, too much legato, but very impressive in the end. It makes my head bow deep. Organist is (Dutch) Cor van Wageningen, the organ is the Schnitger et al of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL.
The one that bugged you is Werner Jacob on the Silbermann organ of the Freiberger Dom, Germany. I think it's OK, but also slightly 'middle of the road'.
You did not mention S 686 - 20110129-, which is an interpretation that I do not like. Organist is the Japanese Kei Koito, and from what I've heard so far from her Bach I can say that I don't understand her intentions very much. But of course this could be my 'bad'.

OK, OK. I'll listen again to S 0686 - 20121228-2.

The whole exercise has made me see how decisions about blend versus clarity are really important in organ music, like in string quartet music and symphonies.  People seem to sometimes want clarity in contrapuntal music, because of the play of interacting voices. But the performer may be (justifiably?) more focused on exploring textures. This is interesting (for me  )

[prémont]

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

I will wait with mentioning the names of both organists and instruments. Maybe there are other members who want to have a listen to them .... and/or having a guess who's playing.

Two very different and in their own way distinctive approaches to this marvellous piece of organ music.

I do not think I have heard the first before. It is essentially a romantic interpretation, legato, vertical in conception and stressing the shifting harmonies and suppressing the counterpoint. I do not think that Bach. the supreme master of counterpoint, would have thought of the music in that way. The organ used is as far as I can hear tuned a=440 in equal temperature. It does not sound like a genuine romantic organ but rather like the greater organs built first and foremost in Germany in the 1950es or early 60es under the influence of the organ movement. It might f.i. be the Steinmeyer organ (Marien-orgel from 1959) in the monastery church in Ottobeuren. Or the Metzler organ in Grossmünster Zürich. The organist may be Dutch or maybe French, but from the somewhat older generation. I would expect f.i. Feike Asma and Piet van Egmond to play in a more informed style, so he may even be older than these.

The second recording is played on another great organ, the character of which is influenced by baroque French organ building (low rather soft but full mixtures and  French-sounding reeds). It is tuned a=ca. 415 and  the temperature is unequal. First I thought of Andreas Silbermann, but the organ sounds bigger than the ones he built, so I ruled the Silbermann organ in St. Thomas, Strassbourg out (I have ordered but not yet received the new Aeolus box), and then I considered the Gabler organ in Weingarten, which fits the description. The very informed playing - almost overarticulated (to quote RdS) points to a genuine scholar and even if it is a long time since I listened to Ewald Kooiman´s recording of this piece (and I have not "control-listened" now), I think it must be him. 

[Bachxtehude]

Just what I was looking for!
Thanks for this thread,premont.I'll have fun reading through,and already see that I have some of the recordings in the original post.One of them I just found tonight online.

[Marc]

Just what I was looking for!

Say what? 

Welcome and enjoy!

Thanks for this thread,premont.I'll have fun reading through,and already see that I have some of the recordings in the original post.One of them I just found tonight online.

Dunno why, but somehow this is my favourite thread, too.

OK, OK. I'll listen again to S 0686 - 20121228-2.

The whole exercise has made me see how decisions about blend versus clarity are really important in organ music, like in string quartet music and symphonies.  People seem to sometimes want clarity in contrapuntal music, because of the play of interacting voices. But the performer may be (justifiably?) more focused on exploring textures. This is interesting (for me  )

Yes, I agree. It's interesting and it makes comparative listening so much fun IMHO. And there's of course nothing 'wrong' with your preferences, even though I have a different experience. I'm mesmerized, you're bored, or vice versa. But we both explained why and how. That's OK.

[prémont]

Just what I was looking for!
Thanks for this thread,premont.I'll have fun reading through,and already see that I have some of the recordings in the original post.One of them I just found tonight online.

We also have a Buxtehude thread and a general organ music thread

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5263.0.html

[Marc]

To get rid of all those happy Christmas feelings, I'm back to reality and BWV 686 again.

What about these two?

http://www.mediafire.com/?ki6agi5w85p1x9v

http://www.mediafire.com/?6k56dh7dekcaqi1

Two very different and in their own way distinctive approaches to this marvellous piece of organ music.

I do not think I have heard the first before. It is essentially a romantic interpretation, legato, vertical in conception and stressing the shifting harmonies and suppressing the counterpoint. I do not think that Bach. the supreme master of counterpoint, would have thought of the music in that way. The organ used is as far as I can hear tuned a=440 in equal temperature. It does not sound like a genuine romantic organ but rather like the greater organs built first and foremost in Germany in the 1950es or early 60es under the influence of the organ movement. It might f.i. be the Steinmeyer organ (Marien-orgel from 1959) in the monastery church in Ottobeuren. Or the Metzler organ in Grossmünster Zürich. The organist may be Dutch or maybe French, but from the somewhat older generation. I would expect f.i. Feike Asma and Piet van Egmond to play in a more informed style, so he may even be older than these.

The second recording is played on another great organ, the character of which is influenced by baroque French organ building (low rather soft but full mixtures and  French-sounding reeds). It is tuned a=ca. 415 and  the temperature is unequal. First I thought of Andreas Silbermann, but the organ sounds bigger than the ones he built, so I ruled the Silbermann organ in St. Thomas, Strassbourg out (I have ordered but not yet received the new Aeolus box), and then I considered the Gabler organ in Weingarten, which fits the description. The very informed playing - almost overarticulated (to quote RdS) points to a genuine scholar and even if it is a long time since I listened to Ewald Kooiman´s recording of this piece (and I have not "control-listened" now), I think it must be him.

Premont, thanks for your insights.

The first organist is Dutch Jolanda Zwoferink (born 1969). She's well known as interpreter of the French Romantic area and she's also founder of the record company label Prestare. Zwoferink is, as she has emphasized herself in some interviews, not part of the famous/notorious Dutch 'HIP-gang', despite the fact that HIP-influenced Bram Beekman was one of her teachers.

http://www.jolandazwoferink.nl/welkom?lang=en

The instrument she's playing is the large Silbermann/Hildebrandt organ of the Dresdner Hofkirche. AFAIK, it is tuned a' = ca. 415 Hz (equal temperament).

Here's a link to this particular issue:



http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331566&pagina=index

It's not my preferred way of Bach playing, but I like to listen to different approaches, and sometimes it's nice to get blown away in a both romantic and monumental way.

The second performance is by German Ute Gremmel-Geuchen (yes, it's a lady's affair! ), a pupil of Ewald Kooiman. It's indeed part of the new Bach organ integral of Aeolus.

http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works

She's playing the Johann Andreas Silbermann organ of the Saint-Thomas in Strasbourg, pitched a' = 387 Hz (original pitch, reinstalled by Kern in 1979).
I like this performance very much, though one might argue that sometimes it's a bit too 'strict'. But, as I mentioned before, it's certainly able to get me into a trance! Therefore: THUMBS UP!

[prémont]

The first organist is Dutch Jolanda Zwoferink (born 1969). She's well known as interpreter of the French Romantic area and she's also founder of the record company label Prestare. Zwoferink is, as she has emphasized herself in some interviews, not part of the famous/notorious Dutch 'HIP-gang', despite the fact that HIP-influenced Bram Beekman was one of her teachers.

The instrument she's playing is the large Silbermann/Hildebrandt organ of the Dresdner Hofkirche. AFAIK, it is tuned a' = ca. 415 Hz (equal temperament).

Never heard Zwoferink. Recall having seen the CD and considered a purchase for the sake of the Silbermann organ. I own a small handful of other CDs played on this organ, and I must say that I do not even in retrospect recognize the sound on Zwoferink´s CD. I have not got perfect pitch and have to realize that the recorder I used for pitch-comparation is too low. Next time I have to use my tuning fork. It is interesting for historical reasons to listen to a romantic interpretation like this - my first thought when I heard it was, that this might have been the way Cesar Franck played - but honestly I do not think I would get much impulse to listen to it more than once. I wonder if she intends to do a complete Bach set on that orgn.

The second performance is by German Ute Gremmel-Geuchen (yes, it's a lady's affair! ), a pupil of Ewald Kooiman. It's indeed part of the new Bach organ integral of Aeolus.

http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/All-Discs/AE10761-Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Complete-Organ-Works

She's playing the Johann Andreas Silbermann organ of the Saint-Thomas in Strasbourg, pitched a' = 387 Hz (original pitch, reinstalled by Kern in 1979).
I like this performance very much, though one might argue that sometimes it's a bit too 'strict'. But, as I mentioned before, it's certainly able to get me into a trance! Therefore: THUMBS UP!

This possibility I had considered already, as you can see, but I had never heard Ute Gremmel-Geuchen and did not know her style. So I could not say. Her style is however a most distinctive Kooiman-style. The style of the organ is also rather distinctive, but I am surprised, that this organ sounds that big, so I considered the Gabler organ more likely, even if the boomy bass were missing. If I had used my tuning fork, I would have discovered, that the pitch was too low.

Thanks for this intersting game.

[Mandryka]

Never heard Zwoferink. Recall having seen the CD and considered a purchase for the sake of the Silbermann organ. I own a small handful of other CDs played on this organ, and I must say that I do not even in retrospect recognize the sound on Zwoferink´s CD. I have not got perfect pitch and have to realize that the recorder I used for pitch-comparation is too low. Next time I have to use my tuning fork. It is interesting for historical reasons to listen to a romantic interpretation like this - my first thought when I heard it was, that this might have been the way Cesar Franck played - but honestly I do not think I would get much impulse to listen to it more than once. I wonder if she intends to do a complete Bach set on that orgn.

What that shows is that (deliberately) uninformed organ playing is not history. I think you can see the same tendencies elsewhere-- with performers like Hengelbrock. I bet there are examples from harpsichordists too. Someone here once made a comment along those lines about Vartolo's Frescabaldi and Ludger Remy's Froberger. There's a relation here to postmodernism which I would like to explore some day.

The dissonances are really striking in Jolanda Zwoferink  performances (I'm going from memory here -- I've not had a chance to relisten) If that's right, is that because of the registration?

It certainly would be interesting to know if she's said anything about her performance principles.

I'm quite tempted to buy her CD, as long as Marc doesn't warn me off it. Same for Cor van Wageningen's. For some reason I can't get what he does out of my head.

Thanks for this intersting game.

Seconded

[Mandryka]

We also have a Buxtehude thread and a general organ music thread

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5263.0.html

And a Sweelinck thread, which I found really useful (it put me on to Glen wilson's CD, for example)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15617.msg384851.html#msg384851

[Marc]

[About Zwoferink/Bach]
I'm quite tempted to buy her CD, as long as Marc doesn't warn me off it. Same for Cor van Wageningen's. For some reason I can't get what he does out of my head.

Don't worry, I won't warn you off the Zwoferink.
And certainly not off the Van Wageningen!

Dunno about ordering from outside NL, but here are two handy e-mail adresses to find out what's possible:

info@prestarecd-productions.nl
info@toccata-records.nl

Zwoferink's disc is catalogue number Prestare ZWF 3331566.
http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331566&pagina=index&taal=en
Van Wageningen's disc is Toccata TRR0941.
http://www.toccata-records.nl/overig-cd/77-trr0941.html

Mind you, last month a second Bach disc by Jolanda Zwoferink (again recorded in Dresden) was issued, with a.o. BWV 542, 543 and 582, the Partita BWV 767, and various chorale arrangements, among them BWV 659 and 662. But, as she stated in an interview last year, there are no plans for an integral.

http://www.zwoferinkcd-productions.nl/pages/catalogusview.php?code=3331567&pagina=index&taal=en