J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Octave]

I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.



Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm

[jlaurson]

I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.



Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm

I love Clavieruebung III - one of the finest Bach concert experiences in recent memory (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/03/organic-bach.html) was of that work, and afterwards I went looking for yet more recordings than I already have and are part of the complete sets. Suzuki is one I don't have (and don't know, except through available Arkiv-samples), so my answer can't be that helpful to you... but in my search I found that I very much liked Ludwig Lusser (Gramola) whose tempi hit a good mix between propulsive and unhurried (obviously very much a personal impression... and as I listen right now, I actually think he could take it just a little less hurried and accentuate more clearly up front, but less ostentatious just in the following parts of the St.Anne Prelude... bit erratic). Certainly his tone is clear, full, with pleasant brilliance and brightness and I do like his subsequent voicing.

Kevin Bowyer (Nimbus) hasn't the best reputation among intégrales, but I love his sumptuous, weighty Organ Mass and always have.

Hansjoerg Albrecht (Oehms), whose Clavierbuchlein II I enjoyed tremendously, pulls all, or at least most, stops for the St.Anne and comes darn close to "just the way I like it". Broadly flowing, a wide sound -- not the most detailed, even where his touch becomes light and agile -- but seductive all along.  Like a few other recordings - Suzuki included - Albrecht has the appropriate chorales interspersed with the organ parts.

[Octave]

Extremely helpful response; my thanks.

[milk]

I've been listening to this all day.
I was particularly paying attention to 684 just now. It's one of my favorite compositions. Maybe for other people as well?
Weinberger seems to take this kind of quickly. Christoph Albrecht even more so (guess I'll have to check out the other Albrecht?). But, I seem to get more out of Albrecht. There's just more air - more lift-off. I think I'm beginning to understand why the Silbermann series is said to be old-fashioned in playing style though. Is it kind of brisk and straightforward Bach? Or am I hearing this wrong?
Mandryka asked what I thought of the Rubsam. For 684, Rubsam is ghostly.
It's like driving through fog on a dark night. There's a kind of trepidation about what's behind every bend. I enjoy how Rubsam
always surprises me with his take on things. I get a lot of emotions in the Rubsam: fear, sadness, resignation. But I always go back
to Walcha who first kind of turned me onto this music. I love the balance in his playing (why does it sound like he's playing the pedals where others aren't?). I guess I can't explain it well but there is something that completes me in the Walcha. It's calm and all of a piece? I feel like he creates this total world and he know exactly what he wants to say.
Another one I was focusing on was 671. However, old-fashioned or not, Albrecht on the Silbermann recording impressed me much more than Weinberger (and others as well - although I don't have the concentration to go at many recordings fairly in one sitting). I swear I thought I could almost lose my mind listening to this. I keep wondering what people thought hearing a piece like this in a Church during Bach's time. Did they break down in tears? Fall to their knees? I feel like the tremendum opens up before me. 

[jlaurson]

For 684, Rubsam is ghostly.
It's like driving through fog on a dark night.

I keep wondering what people thought hearing a piece like this in a Church during Bach's time. Did they break down in tears? Fall to their knees? I feel like the tremendum opens up before me.

Naxos or Philips?

I know I cried, the last time I heard Clavieruebung, slightly abbreviated, live. Something about being grateful... but also being reduced to helpless awe before such unassuming greatness.

[milk]

Naxos or Philips?

I know I cried, the last time I heard Clavieruebung, slightly abbreviated, live. Something about being grateful... but also being reduced to helpless awe before such unassuming greatness.

I have the Naxos. Sometimes I can't believe I can have such a reaction to something. I was on the train listening to 671 tonight. It felt like the world was falling apart.

[Marc]

I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.



Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm

Clavier-Übung 3?
Among my eternal Bach favourites.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14207.msg350928.html#msg350928

Suzuki?
IMO: OK, but nothing special, both his playing and the chosen instrument are a bit too shallow for my taste.

Favourite CU 3 recording pour moi?
Impossible to say. But I know I like these three performances very very much: Edgar Krapp (Berlin Classics), Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), Wim van Beek (Helior).
Great live experience: last August in Noordbroek, Leonore Lub playing BWV 552 and the pedaliter chorales on the Schnitger organ, with chorales sung in between.

[....] I was on the train listening to 671 tonight. It felt like the world was falling apart.

BWV 671?
Nothing less but amazing, the final bars are truly breathtaking.

[Octave]

Thank you for those tips, Marc.

milk, your writing about your response to the CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (Rubsam in particular?) is beautiful and unassuming.  I want to experience music this way. 

These threads are hard on my old habits, because I'd purchased the first Walcha organ set just an hour before reading some of these posts; now I'm already poised to accumulate some of the Rubsam.  GMG is dreadful!

[Sammy]

I'm sorry to deviate from the present discussion a bit.  I am interested in Masaaki Suzuki's recording of J.S. Bach's CLAVIER-ÜBUNG III (the German Organ Mass) on Bis.  Though I have already received much assistance with Bach organ works at GMG, I am especially curious about great recordings of this work, especially if you dislike Suzuki's.  I've done a little searching but not found too much discussion of the piece; I suspect my searches are indequate.  There was very brief discussion of the Suzuki once, that I have seen.



Here is a long consideration by Donald Satz, from Bach-Cantatas:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm

I well remember my extreme disappointment with Suzuki's Part 2.  Still, Part 1 was for me a mind-bending listening experience I'll always treasure.

[Mandryka]

Suzuki is rarely, if ever, warm and peaceful, comfortable. His God here is hard and tough. Even when he cracks a smile, it's not a loving warm friendly smile (in 675/676 for example) Nether is there often a feeling of rapt meditative quiet mystical enlightenment/

I spent a lot of time with CU 3 last year -- the one that impressed me most and longest was Walcha's 1947 recording.

[Mandryka]

I've been totally fascinated these past few days by the Leipzig Chorale BWV 656, O Lamm Gottes, played here by Koopman on an extraordinary colourful organ. Slow, stately, regal, wild at the end. More like this please -- either more of this organ or more of Koopman at this level. It's on spotify -- which is how I found it.

[Que]

I've been totally fascinated these past few days by the Leipzig Chorale BWV 656, O Lamm Gottes, played here by Koopman on an extraordinary colourful organ. Slow, stately, regal, wild at the end. More like this please -- either more of this organ or more of Koopman at this level. It's on spotify -- which is how I found it.

Koopman's entire Novalis series was reissued by Brilliant:

[asin]B001MXU9F0[/asin]

Q

[Sammy]

Suzuki is rarely, if ever, warm and peaceful, comfortable. His God here is hard and tough.

Pretty much on target, and the organ is a great instrument for a hard and tough personality ( and many other personalities also).

[Octave]

Thanks Sammy, Marc, and Mandryka for replies and input.  I have quite a bit of work to do here.  I wonder about this:

[re: Sukuki]

Nether is there often a feeling of rapt meditative quiet mystical enlightenment/

Do people speak of Suzuki's Bach in these terms especially often?  Are you making reference to terms of praise that you've heard?  Is it common to praise Suzuki in terms of "quiet mystical enlightenment"?   I have not seen this, though I also do not follow the classical music press at all.  I have seen him both praised and deprecated in terms that seem suspiciously attuned to his ethnicity and cultural background.  On more than a few occasions, even in my scant passing experience, I've heard Suzuki's defenders/admirers invoke his personal Lutheranism as some badge of authenticity.  I wonder if this is the "blowback" of what is called "identity politics" in the United States.  It seems bogus.  I can't remember the last time I heard "enlightenment" attributed to Bach's music as played by Occidental hands.  I suppose there are a host of "Teutonic" adjectives used as terms of praise; that has made me feel a little funny, but since it compromises pretensions of universality and roots the music in empirical study, I've felt better about that.  "Oriental" musicians praised (or derided) in terms derived from California hippies....that doesn't seem empirical.

Thanks much for the mention of that Ton Koopman collection from Brilliant.

[Mandryka]

Thanks Sammy, Marc, and Mandryka for replies and input.  I have quite a bit of work to do here.  I wonder about this:

[re: Sukuki]
Do people speak of Suzuki's Bach in these terms especially often?  Are you making reference to terms of praise that you've heard?  Is it common to praise Suzuki in terms of "quiet mystical enlightenment"?   I have not seen this, though I also do not follow the classical music press at all.  I have seen him both praised and deprecated in terms that seem suspiciously attuned to his ethnicity and cultural background.  On more than a few occasions, even in my scant passing experience, I've heard Suzuki's defenders/admirers invoke his personal Lutheranism as some badge of authenticity.  I wonder if this is the "blowback" of what is called "identity politics" in the United States.  It seems bogus.  I can't remember the last time I heard "enlightenment" attributed to Bach's music as played by Occidental hands.  I suppose there are a host of "Teutonic" adjectives used as terms of praise; that has made me feel a little funny, but since it compromises pretensions of universality and roots the music in empirical study, I've felt better about that.  "Oriental" musicians praised (or derided) in terms derived from California hippies....that doesn't seem empirical.

Thanks much for the mention of that Ton Koopman collection from Brilliant.

When you get the Rubsam Naxos CU 3, see what you think of the way he plays 678 for example. Sometimes with him, because of the introspectiveness and the "mystical" registrations ( sorry, can't think of a better word), I imagine that he's painting an image of God as offering enlightenment. Also Gerhard  Weinberger's amazing, astonishing record of it, where he seems to make time stand still.

By the way I wasn't praising or dissing Suzuki's cu3. I think what he does is interesting. Or rather, it's interesting to think about why he does what he does.

It's intersting how they use the music to express philosophical ideas.

[Octave]

When you get the Rubsam Naxos CU 3, see what you think of the way he plays 678 for example. Sometimes with him, because of the introspectiveness and the "mystical" registrations ( sorry, can't think of a better word), I imagine that he's painting an image of God as offering enlightenment. Also Gerhard  Weinberger's amazing, astonishing record of it, where he seems to make time stand still.

By the way I wasn't praising or dissing Suzuki's cu3. I think what he does is interesting. Or rather, it's interesting to think about why he does what he does.

It's intersting how they use the music to express philosophical ideas.

Thanks for the clarification; I think I was mainly curious if you were laterally referring to the same kind of sentiment that was at play in one online person's dismissal of Suzuki's music [in this case, he happened to be a detractor, which is only semi-relevant] as, and I quote, "anime Bach".  If that's not exactly offensive, it is still a strange thing to say.  Since this comment, I have run into much less overtly strange comments that are unsettlingly similar.

Is the Gerhard Weinberger CU3 you mention all contained on Vol. 13 of his CPO series, or is it some other recording entirely?  Why does it only require one disc for him to play these piece, if in fact this is the case?  (I'm sorry, I have yet to actually read up on how the piece is structured.)  I was assuming that all of the CU3 that Weinberger plays is on disc 13 because of Que's comments below and Dominy Clements' review (linked below that).

It's funny, I ran across a post of Que's which seems to be largely in agreement with some of you about the Suzuki, but disappointed with the Weinberger; the Dominy Clements review from Musicweb, in its comments on disc 13, actually acknowledges Que's response while concurring with Mandryka.

[...] First, I got volumes 9-16 of Weinberger's cycle on cpo.
I'm very satisfied with it: good, honest and pointed playing - straight forward with no frills. I like that.
I found volume 13 with Clavier Übung less satisfactory in comparison with the rest.

Listening to these recordings confirmed the importance to me of the use of period organs - they all sound beautiful, some drop dead gorgeous! If this cycle is issued as a boxed set, I will most certainly get it!

My other purchase was the Clavier Übung III with Suzuki (BIS).
This recording simply doesn't do it for me. Suzuki's playing is very flowing and that I liked. But in the end I find it all too abstract and detached, and too smooth - he plays a lot legato. Same goes for the choral intermissions: it all sounds very ethereal, but I don't hear the (spiritual) message - I like that concept of very much though! (Believe Koopman did the same on Teldec?)
Finally, the impression of smoothness is enhanced by the modern organ, which lacks IMO character and "grit".

Of the very little number of recordings I know, my favourite recording of Clavier Übung III remains Kay Johannsen (Hänssler).

and that Dominy Clements review of the whole Weinberger set (scroll down for his disc-by-disc report):
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Bach_organ_7773632.htm

[Que]

It might be helpful to mention that in the end I was completely turned of by Weinberger's set: a frustrating experience, offering historically correct approaches on wonderfull organs, but in the end Weinberger falls short on consistency, expressiveness and plain lack of personality. Too academic, too deliberate. 

Currently I'm totally enamored by Koopman's Teldec cycle (not depriciating his superb Novalis rec) and highly appreciate Vernet's (Ligia).

Q

[jlaurson]

I was completely turned off by Weinberger's set: a frustrating experience, offering historically correct approaches on wonderful organs, but in the end Weinberger falls short on consistency, expressiveness and plain lack of personality. Too academic, too deliberate. 

Currently I'm totally enamored by Koopman's Teldec cycle (not depreciating his superb Novalis rec) and highly appreciate Vernet's (Ligia).

I agree with all, except that I don't think highly of Koopman's Novalis cycle which I have no qualms deprecating. :-)

That's not to say that Weinberger hasn't highlights to offer... and when he hits his academic groove, it sure feels right. He's a bit of a latter-day Stockmeier. But mostly that set is attractive for its completeness.

Listening to the CÜ-III right now... this time with Christoph Albrecht on the Silbermann Organ set which I find quite wonderful. Dignity (or gravitas? No... not quite the latter) and unhurried, despite brisk tempos that pull you right through the St. Anne. (The set is still a ridiculous bargain from Amazon.de, at €24.)

Speaking of the Silbermann Organ cycle: Aside factoid: The niece of Herbert Collum was my landlord, at one point.

[Marc]

I agree with all, except that I don't think highly of Koopman's Novalis cycle which I have no qualms deprecating. :-)
[....]

With me, Koopman is a hit or a miss. He can be very convincing, especially in chorale pieces, despite his preferences for a profusion of ornamentations.
I understand f.i. Mandryka's enthousiasm for BWV 656 (Novalis). Koopman has got an image of choosing (too) fast tempi, but this is certainly not always the case, as he's proving in this particular piece.

Btw, about the organ, here's a clip from 2008 with Ewald Kooiman giving a masterclass on the 4-manual Trinity organ built by Karl Joseph Riepp. (Sound quality not very good though.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhQt-iVI9ag

[Marc]

Oh, and adding this, for what it's worth: I agree with Que's positive opinion about Kay Johannsen's CU 3 (Hänssler) and with Jens' (hidden) advice to get the good ole Gottfried Silbermann cycle, especially when it's priced like that.