J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Octave]

And I adore, adore, Walcha's final Orgelbuchlein. But I can't explain why. (Did he make three records of it?)

Just to make sure, that's the ORGELBUCHLEIN included in the "Walcha II" (Archiv) set, non?  I did some rooting in the bach-cantatas.com Walcha discog not long ago, but I do not remember a later recording of the piece that the one in that cycle/box.

[Marc]

Thanks for more clarification. Well, I'm making it a point to pay attention to the Schnitgers on the Foccroulle recordings today. This 565 is stirring!

Yes, I agree, but it's 'another' 565 that's available on the market right now (Schnitger et al, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL, recorded in 2008).
The YouTube clip provides a performance from Foccroulle's 'younger days' (1984) and only a few of them survived in the integral boxset (BWV 730, 731 and 592).

[milk]

Yes, I agree, but it's 'another' 565 that's available on the market right now (Schnitger et al, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL, recorded in 2008).
The YouTube clip provides a performance from Foccroulle's 'younger days' (1984) and only a few of them survived in the integral boxset (BWV 730, 731 and 592).

Ah I didn't realize that. I've been listening to the integral today. He plays BWV 564 on the Schnitger (Toccata, Adagio and Fugue). This is one of my favorite pieces. The Schnitger certainly gets the job done! It's a warm instrument with a lot of presence and Foccroulle gives a joyous performance on the fugue.

[Mandryka]

Just to make sure, that's the ORGELBUCHLEIN included in the "Walcha II" (Archiv) set, non?  I did some rooting in the bach-cantatas.com Walcha discog not long ago, but I do not remember a later recording of the piece that the one in that cycle/box.

I have this vague memory of seeing three Orgelbuchlein recordings mentioned  in Youngrock Lee's discography, but unfortunately the page seems to be down at the moment

But anyway the one I find really fascinating is the final one on Archiv. I've not fully understood what exactly he's doing to make me prefer  it to the other very early record I have, which is certainly more colourful registration-wise, and maybe slightly more energetic. And anyway maybe it's not really grounded in anything interesting or objective. I'll try to listen again to soon and understand a bit better.

[prémont]

I have this vague memory of seeing three Orgelbuchlein recordings mentioned  in Youngrock Lee's discography, but unfortunately the page seems to be down at the moment

But anyway the one I find really fascinating is the final one on Archiv. I've not fully understood what exactly he's doing to make me prefer  it to the other very early record I have, which is certainly more colourful registration-wise, and maybe slightly more energetic. And anyway maybe it's not really grounded in anything interesting or objective. I'll try to listen again to soon and understand a bit better.

To my knowledge Walcha only recorded two complete sets of the Orgelbüchlein. The one on the Arp Schnitger organ in Cappel (mono) and the one on the Silbermann/Kern organ in Strassbourg (stereo).
On the other hand I did own (a gift from an old friend) in my early youth a recording of the three first of the Orgelbüchlein preludes (BWV 599, 600 and 601)  on a 78 rpm disc played on the Stellwagen organ, St. Jacobi, Lübeck, recorded 1947. He recorded also parts of the so called mono set on that organ (BWV 547 and 565 among others) in the same year. If there was as complete 78 rpm version of the Orgelbüchlein, it did not even survive the change from 78 to LP, and I find it to be most unlikely, that he should have recorded a complete set in Lübeck in 1947 and again in Cappel in 1950/52..

[Opus106]

Came across this by a fortuitous accident. It's the 2012 English translation of a German book first published in '06.

[asin]0252078454[/asin]

[Octave]

I was preparing a question about TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain when I noticed Nav's obituary/memorial thread on her; what a shock.  Since by coincidence I was going to ask this question in this thread, perhaps it's a good time after all to discuss her art for a little while.  I know almost nothing, only an Erato (?) chorales disc recorded between her 2nd the 3rd cycles, ~1985?  I have been poised to get one of her cycles as soon as I've spent some more time with the Bach organ music I already have.

I think Mandryka once spoke very highly of some Trio Sonatas by Alain, but I cannot find his comment, so perhaps I am dreaming it?  Do you remember if the Sonatas you heard were from one of the cycles, Mandryka, and if so, which one?

As an addendum, there was some conversation about Alain's various (4?) TRIO SONATAS recordings, at least ~p. 8 and ~p.28 of this thread.  I will excerpt some of this discussion below, with occasion annotations in [...] to clarify which editions are being described.  Probably useless, but at least you will know I tried to do some research first!

I see that Coop expressed an appreciation of this Trio Sonatas disc:

I'm curious if this particular recording (discussed below) has been reissued recently?

Some conversation (strictly optional):
premont responded as follows:

This recording of the Triosonatas is, as far as I can read from the cover, the fourth (!) recording Alain made (in the time between the second and the third integral). Why she only recorded the triosonatas one more time, I do not know, but I agree, that it is very good, very chamber music like and rhythmically alert.

The elusive Antoine Marchand replied:

You are incredible, dear Premont!

I have been finding out: The Trio Sonatas included in the M-C Alain second set were recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France. I don't know the recording date because isn't delivered with my set, but it's said that all of them were recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. It seems that the original set included 21 LPs.
   
In the Coopmv's disc (a digital recording) Alain plays the organ at the église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.

We discussed some time ago on this M-C Alain's disc and the conclusions were the following:

It [the Trio Sonatas disc pictured above] is not a part of her integral recordings. It is a single disc recorded between her second and third integral (digital recording). Alain plays there the organ at the Église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.

On the other hand, the trio sonatas disc included in the M-C Alain second integral –at least the disc originally included there- was recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France (analogue recording). I do not know the recording date because is not provided with my set, but that complete set was recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. Apparently, the original set included 21 LPs.

Although perhaps at some point Erato replaced with that digital recording the original one included in the second integral. Is it possible? 

Premont responds to this:

The precise recording dates were not even published in the notes to the original 21 LP set, which I still keep.
Probably not. I have never seen the Näfels recording constituting a part of a complete set. But I know, that the second integral was rereleased on CD between 10 and 15 years ago, and I do not know whethe the Náfels recording was included in this or not, but I do not think so, since the second recent CD release of the set includes the Schwenkedel recording.

Marc responds:

The second integral hasn't changed (as far as the Trio Sonatas are concerned: Schwenkedel) and is still available, at least in Europe.

I'm afraid that the 'in-between' recording (Näfels) [pictured above] is OOP. Though internet or library searching can provide a solution to that problem of course.

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Sonates-525-530/dp/B000LCIWL6

But premont replies:

But this [Näfels SONATAS, pictured above] is only for completists. I do not think the Näfels recording adds much to the Schwenkedel recording [2nd cycle, rec. '78-'80, most recently reissued by Erato in 15cd set], and if one also has got the Aa Kerk recording (third integral) one is very well-assorted as to M C Alain / Bach Triosonatas.

[Marc]

Octave, at least there's one comforting thought: any compact disc with Alain playing Bach is value for money. (Bless her.)

I think that Premont liked this 'in between 2nd & 3rd integral' recording (Näfels) as much as her recording of the 2nd integral, but if one already owns the 2nd integral then the Näfels recording doesn't add that much.

But, suppose one would decide to buy her 3rd integral and leave the 2nd integral 'untouched', then the Näfels might be an interesting add-on, if one could find it somewhere for a decent price. AFAIK, it hasn't been re-released recently. But most Amazon-sellers are trustworthy, at least that's my experience so far. If you really want it, then there's no hesitation needed to get one of those 2nd hand issues.

About MC Alain & Bach in general: IMO, all Alain's Bach recordings in the period 1975-1985 (a.o. 2nd integral + Trio Sonatas in Näfels) are (just slightly) more to the point than her recordings during the 90s (3rd integral). But the 3rd integral offers more interesting (historic) instruments.
For instance: the Trio Sonatas are played on the beautiful Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL. Alain's playing is less expressive though than in her earlier recordings. Still, I have a very weak spot for this 'HIP/PI' performance.

Hope this reaction is somehow useful.

[kishnevi]

I was preparing a question about TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain when I noticed Nav's obituary/memorial thread on her; what a shock.  Since by coincidence I was going to ask this question in this thread, perhaps it's a good time after all to discuss her art for a little while.  I know almost nothing, only an Erato (?) chorales disc recorded between her 2nd the 3rd cycles, ~1985?  I have been poised to get one of her cycles as soon as I've spent some more time with the Bach organ music I already have.

I may have that same recording:  does it contain the Schubler Chorales?  It was among my first Bach CDs, purchased back when CDs were a brand new thing.

I have her second set, and found it very satisfactory indeed (but without prejudice to her first or third sets, neither of which I've heard).

[Marc]

I may have that same recording:  does it contain the Schubler Chorales?  It was among my first Bach CDs, purchased back when CDs were a brand new thing.

That's probably another disc 'in between', with only chorale preludes:



For this one goes the same: it's good, but no real add-on if one already owns the second integral. There's one 'bonus' on this one though: Jesus bleibet meine Freude, after BWV 147, no. 10.

I have her second set, and found it very satisfactory indeed (but without prejudice to her first or third sets, neither of which I've heard).

The first one (1959-1968), on mainly Marcussen and Frobenius organs in Denmark, never made it to cd (yet).

[Octave]

Thanks to both of you!

Hopefully irrelevant, but I received this Rubsam/Naxos "rush box" today, and had the unpleasant surprise* of finding the slipcase full of Haydn/Kodaly string quartets discs!  Everything shrinkwrapped.  I shot off a little inquiry to Naxos HQ, just in case they know about this and it's a widespread problem.  Maybe a good idea to get your dealer to look at the spines of the enclosed single discs before you buy.

*not that there's anything unpleasant about Haydn quartets

[asin]B0000014C1[/asin]

[Octave]

A very minor question about editions (all HM) of Rene Saorgin's ORGELBÜCHLEIN.  I see that there is one ~1997 "Musique d'Abord" HM reissue that is two discs, with this listed on the cover:


Other editions seem to be only one very long disc, 79 minutes.




All three editions seem to contain the same 45 track divisions, if the contents online can be trusted.  I just wanted to see if the 2cd edition contained some other material.  One Amazon Uk reviewer says: "It is now all on one disc..." so that might answer my question.   I still thought I would ask, just in case.

[aukhawk]

*not that there's anything unpleasant about Haydn quartets

Especially this one - excellent record -

(OT, sorry, couldn't resist.  Anyway, at least now you have the cover art.)

[prémont]

Octave, at least there's one comforting thought: any compact disc with Alain playing Bach is value for money. (Bless her.)

I think that Premont liked this 'in between 2nd & 3rd integral' recording (Näfels) as much as her recording of the 2nd integral, but if one already owns the 2nd integral then the Näfels recording doesn't add that much.

But, suppose one would decide to buy her 3rd integral and leave the 2nd integral 'untouched', then the Näfels might be an interesting add-on, if one could find it somewhere for a decent price. AFAIK, it hasn't been re-released recently. But most Amazon-sellers are trustworthy, at least that's my experience so far. If you really want it, then there's no hesitation needed to get one of those 2nd hand issues.

About MC Alain & Bach in general: IMO, all Alain's Bach recordings in the period 1975-1985 (a.o. 2nd integral + Trio Sonatas in Näfels) are (just slightly) more to the point than her recordings during the 90s (3rd integral). But the 3rd integral offers more interesting (historic) instruments.
For instance: the Trio Sonatas are played on the beautiful Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL. Alain's playing is less expressive though than in her earlier recordings. Still, I have a very weak spot for this 'HIP/PI' performance.

What Marc said.

Marie Claire Alain also recorded a near-complete Bach-set (including the triosonatas) already in the mid-1950´es for Erato on the Clicquot-Gonzales organ of the Eglise Saint-Merry, Paris.
Her officially "first integral" on neobaroque Danish organs has first and foremost got historical interest. The playing is rather stiff, particularly in the choral-free works.
So similar things may even apply to the earlier incomplete set, I suspect, but I do not know for sure, as I do not know the set.

Here is a link to the most complete Alain discography I ever have seen. The site contains also extensive discographies of many other organists.:
http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=190&cmd=Next

Edit: I was not aware, that Mandryka posted this link in another thread already yesterday. Sorry.

[Coopmv]

I was preparing a question about TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain when I noticed Nav's obituary/memorial thread on her; what a shock.  Since by coincidence I was going to ask this question in this thread, perhaps it's a good time after all to discuss her art for a little while.  I know almost nothing, only an Erato (?) chorales disc recorded between her 2nd the 3rd cycles, ~1985?  I have been poised to get one of her cycles as soon as I've spent some more time with the Bach organ music I already have.

I think Mandryka once spoke very highly of some Trio Sonatas by Alain, but I cannot find his comment, so perhaps I am dreaming it?  Do you remember if the Sonatas you heard were from one of the cycles, Mandryka, and if so, which one?

As an addendum, there was some conversation about Alain's various (4?) TRIO SONATAS recordings, at least ~p. 8 and ~p.28 of this thread.  I will excerpt some of this discussion below, with occasion annotations in [...] to clarify which editions are being described.  Probably useless, but at least you will know I tried to do some research first!

I see that Coop expressed an appreciation of this Trio Sonatas disc:

I'm curious if this particular recording (discussed below) has been reissued recently?

Some conversation (strictly optional):
premont responded as follows:
The elusive Antoine Marchand replied:
Premont responds to this:
Marc responds:
But premont replies:

TRIO SONATAS by Marie-Claire Alain is the best version of these works out there IMO.  I have owned this same Erato CD for a good twenty years.  May she rest in peace.  What an outstanding organist she was.  I believe the English organist Margaret Phillips studied with Alain ...

[alyosha]

 Hello there! I hope i'm not too late. I was so thrilled with this thread that i joined GMG just to post some questions -- and offer thanks. I've read the entire thread; and in the meanwhile things seem to have quieted down...but i'll give it a try.


Bach's organ works were the first music i fell in love with as a young child. Then over the years i expanded into many kinds of music. Bach and baroque remained favorites, though for some reason mostly in genres other than organ. I've lived through the rise of HIP in the mainstream, and think i have a decent amateur's understanding of baroque HIP. But least of all re organ, which i'm getting back into and want to learn much more about.


I'm going to wait on  more specific issues of interpretation and recordings; it seems better to start by catching up with Bach organ basics. I've looked around the web a bit, and in the books at my university library (i didn't tackle the journals), but i still could use help with the following. (Oh, and i'm not asking anyone to write these up themselves, just hoping for web documents that aren't tooooo long or technical. If there aren't any that you know of, i can ask more focused questions, give examples, etc.)

   
• How does HIP Bach organ interpretation differ from harpsichord? (Teaser: ...because i'm hearing differences, and i'm confused...)
• Anything on the history of Bach organ interpretation, especially traditional schools that preceded HIP.

Just so you know i'm doing my homework: I've of course found plenty on the organ itself, though i'm sure i'll have a couple questions about that when i'm ready.


And to close re doing my homework: I'm obviously new to GMG forums, and i have looked around some. But please point me to anything i've missed. Also advise if a new thread is warranted, perhaps focused on interpretation vs favorite pieces/recordings? Otoh, it'd be great to keep this thread going as the major Bach organ reference.


I've set it as my signature, but i can't resist a first-post Thank You for everything!

[Marc]

Hello there and welcome!

I recognize many of your questions, but I have to admit: I'm too lazy to check them all out, and, combined with that, very happy with my own taste and preferences, without getting all that deep into music history and layman scholarship.
But the questions themselves are certainly interesting, I agree with that.

Despite my own flabbily attitude in these matters, heres are some links to start with.
But there should be many more.

First, a shortlist of myths on baroque harpsichord playing, and a link to an e-book by Claudio Di Veroli about playing the baroque harpsichord, a.o. compared to clavichord and organ.

http://www.saladelcembalo.org/instruments/myths30.htm
http://play.braybaroque.ie/

Ewald Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger wrote a book about interpreting Bach's organ music. Unfortunately, it's only available in German.

http://www.amazon.de/Interpretation-Orgelmusik-Johann-Sebastian-Bachs/dp/3875372158/

Here's a book about registration of baroque organ music:

http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-article/harpsichord/interpreting-ornaments-in-french-baroque-music/4479

And, as a 'consolation', a link that proofs that we are talking about difficult matters, just some quotes about ornamention in French baroque music:

http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-article/harpsichord/interpreting-ornaments-in-french-baroque-music/4479

[Octave]

While the thread is bumped up, late thanks everybody for assistance in some of the questions I'd posed re: M-C Alain etc.

[Mandryka]

Hello there! I hope i'm not too late. I was so thrilled with this thread that i joined GMG just to post some questions -- and offer thanks. I've read the entire thread; and in the meanwhile things seem to have quieted down...but i'll give it a try.


Bach's organ works were the first music i fell in love with as a young child. Then over the years i expanded into many kinds of music. Bach and baroque remained favorites, though for some reason mostly in genres other than organ. I've lived through the rise of HIP in the mainstream, and think i have a decent amateur's understanding of baroque HIP. But least of all re organ, which i'm getting back into and want to learn much more about.


I'm going to wait on  more specific issues of interpretation and recordings; it seems better to start by catching up with Bach organ basics. I've looked around the web a bit, and in the books at my university library (i didn't tackle the journals), but i still could use help with the following. (Oh, and i'm not asking anyone to write these up themselves, just hoping for web documents that aren't tooooo long or technical. If there aren't any that you know of, i can ask more focused questions, give examples, etc.)

   
• How does HIP Bach organ interpretation differ from harpsichord? (Teaser: ...because i'm hearing differences, and i'm confused...)
• Anything on the history of Bach organ interpretation, especially traditional schools that preceded HIP.

Just so you know i'm doing my homework: I've of course found plenty on the organ itself, though i'm sure i'll have a couple questions about that when i'm ready.


And to close re doing my homework: I'm obviously new to GMG forums, and i have looked around some. But please point me to anything i've missed. Also advise if a new thread is warranted, perhaps focused on interpretation vs favorite pieces/recordings? Otoh, it'd be great to keep this thread going as the major Bach organ reference.


I've set it as my signature, but i can't resist a first-post Thank You for everything!

On harpsichord interpretation pre Hip, you could get the collection of Landowska's writings published by her pupil Denise Restout in a book called "Landowska on Music"

Another harpsichordist whose style I adore is Albert Fuller, though whether you'd say he was pre-Hip or not isn't clear to me. Anything you can find either about or by him, please ,let me know.

There was a thread about Raphael Puyana somewhere here, made when he died recenly. I made some comments about how I thought his music making deteriorated when he became interested in HIP ideas.

We've discussed the book on Walcha by Joseph Kunz on this thread. I got some very valuable and amusing  things from it. I myself would like to read Walcha's own memoir, so if you find it in English or French please let me know. Another thing i'd like to read is Leonhardt's paper "In Praise of Two-manual Flemish Harpsichord"

More generally Bruce Haynes book on the End of Early Music has some tools which may be applicable to ideas about playing baroque keyboard music.

I should say that I find the idea of HIP really unhelpful. I'm tempted to say that the term should be avoided, and instead just think in terms of various schools of performance - Dutch, Italian etc. Or just think about PI. Of better, think about what the performers' ideas are about expression and articulation and rhythm.

Messori, Moroney and Rubsam all think their performances are informed. It's not very helpful that, to make sense of what they're doing.

[alyosha]

@Marc: Thanks for the links. I'm not surprised there's not much readily accessible (in english) -- i already searched some on my own.  And i know it's complicated/controversial, and what you mean re "layman scholarship". I'll post something that will both narrow the issues (more fun, easier to respond?) and focus on what we can hear and not simply read about...

@Mandryka: Thanks for all the suggestions -- i see the Haynes book in my future... I'm a lot more familiar with the harpsichord story. And intrigued about aspects of the organ that have perhaps made its story unique: fixed in particular types of locations; built in different styles over time but not, if i may say, as much change as harpsichord to piano; much less of a continuous stream of new mainstream/popular compositions (i know there have been many new works, but again i mean contrasted with, say, the home use and concert popularity of the piano). The whole thing fascinates me, esp re how all that has affected performance traditions. Which gets to HIP: I welcome your skepticism. I can color outside those lines myself.   But i do feel it helps, esp to keep clear one extreme vs another, even if there's a big grey area in between. And learning the lay of that land can be very helpful for a beginner (like me, re organ for sure). Again, a post coming right up might clarify...