J.S. Bach on the Organ

[alyosha]

Re Art of Fugue:

So what would it be to be dionysian?

One organ AoF i happen to know is Gould's, from my my big phase of him almost, gosh, 3 decades ago. Not at all dionysian qua bacchanalian; nor do i think most would say re emotional expression. But you could make a case for it being mildly dionysian qua playful, childlike in a good way.

Or not. You have to screw on your "Gould ears", if you even own a pair. And i would understand people seeing this as his idiosyncratic version of apollonian. Or worse...

[Mandryka]

I won't be able to listen to Gould's organ AoF till I'm back in London, but from what I remember GG put a huge amount of value on clarity. Voices are kept very dictinct, rarely if ever blended. Same for beats.

The result is that you know all the time that you're listening to something pretty clever and complicated. I guess Gould thought that Bach's main genius was about counterpoint, or at best about the balance of counterpoint and feeling, and that explains his way of playing the music.

So if that's right, it's not quite dionysian, because the heart, the emotional content, is kept in check by the head, the formal content.

As I said, that's just my memory. And I'm aware that GG changed his style towards the end of his life - I'm not sure whether there are any live organ recordings of AoF.

For what it's worth, I adore the piano records he made of the cpti from the end of Art of Fugue, including the unfinished one.

While thinking about this issue, it crossed my mind that it's such a shame that Blandine Verlet never tackled Art of Fugue. Another regret is that Harnoncourt didn't tackle it, or at least that he didn't tackle it in a more uncompromising frame of mind than I hear in his Opfer. What I would like is a performance which exemplifies this famous idea from Baroque Music Today

This leads to a further consideration. In oil paintings using glazes, the paint is transparent; we can see through ne layer to the next, so that we look through four or five layers to the drawing that lies beneath them. Something similar happens when we listen to a well-articulated piece of music. Our ears penetrate it in depth and we clearly hear the different levels, which nonetheless merge to form a whole. On the foundation level we hear the 'design', the plan; on another level we find accented dissonances; in the next, a voice which is softly slurred in its diction, and another which is strongly articulated. All of this is at the same time, synchronized. The listener is not able to comprehend everything contained in the piece at once, but wanders through the various levels of the piece, always hearing something different. This multi-layered concept is extremely important for understanding this music. It is almost never satisfied with a mere two-dimensional approach.

[alyosha]

@Mandryka re Gould: Well put and well taken re his organ and piano. I thought it would be fun to make a case, but he's not what you're looking for, incl re that nice quote. Looking into it a bit just now, i was reminded of GG's early organ study, and learned that that's what he played in his first public performance.

Please keep us posted re your findings. AoF, as with so many masterpieces, has different sides that can be emphasized in different proportions, or even "over"-emphasized but in a way that is musical and revealing. Yet to my ears and my typical listening interest, it often is too much of either -- put in the extreme for fun and brevity -- something like, "the great exercise in fugal technique", or "self-written epitaph of the dying master of a dying art and age". Ok, just to be sure i don't offend: the first can be fascinating, exciting, insightful, etc; and the second can be reverent, mournful or anyway melancholy, and BTW romanticism can work quite well to bring those out.

I'm not sure how well that fits with your search for "dionysian" -- and the one that pops to the front of my mind isn't on organ -- but again, i'm looking forward to what you discover.

[Mandryka]

That quote from Harnoncourt did two things for me. On the one hand it made it really clear what the expressive possibilities are in multi-voiced music. You can make interpretive choices, from blended to transparent, from synchonised to various degrees of staggardness. This is familiar stuff.

But what I like most of all about what Harnoncourt says is the idea that a good performance won't try to push everything in your face all at once. All the voices are equally important, but the texture is so rich that you can't get everything that's going on at one time. So listening is like wondering through a complicated region. Listening is a sort of flânerie. i think that's a really really exciting idea.

[prémont]

Mandryka: Dionysian or Bacchant (NB not Bach-ant ) , well Dionysos was the God of wine and ecstasy, so when I think of Dionysian music, I imagine some playful and dancing music, and I do not recall any Organ recording of the Art of Fugue, about which this is true - only a few ensemble versions, Alessandrini jumps to my mind.

Alyosha: As to pre-HIP Bach style I have never been much interested in the romantic way of Bach interpretation. The organ movement changed the view upon Bach´s organ works, but the almost continual legato playing and the changing registrations often aiming at some climatic effect persisted. The romantic rubato was discarded and instead the tempo became more regular. The Leipzig school represents this style well, and the Berlin Classics box with Bach on Silbermann organs contains many recordings of this kind.

[Mandryka]

Mandryka: Dionysian or Bacchant (NB not Bach-ant ) , well Dionysos was the God of wine and ecstasy, so when I think of Dionysian music, I imagine some playful and dancing music, and I do not recall any Organ recording of the Art of Fugue, about which this is true - only a few ensemble versions, Alessandrini jumps to my mind.

Oh, hardly playful and dancing. Agave tore Petheus to pieces in Euripades's play. For me it's about the balance, or rather the lack of balance, between form and feeling.

[prémont]

Oh, hardly playful and dancing. Agave tore Petheus to pieces in Euripades's play. For me it's about the balance, or rather the lack of balance, between form and feeling.

Not in my book. I consider Euripides´ play a special case.

My dictionary says: dionysian = festive and licentious. And I consider dancing an integrated part of a dionysian orgy, but not every orgy needs to degenerate into tragedy.

[Mandryka]

Not in my book. I consider Euripides´ play a special case.

My dictionary says: dionysian = festive and licentious. And I consider dancing an integrated part of a dionysian orgy, but not every orgy needs to degenerate into tragedy.

Well maybe, I can't argue. I gave up reading Greek when I was 21, and since then I've been a dilettante at best.

But there's something I'd like to mention here about my own musical taste. I very much like it when the music feels as though it's about to fall apart, when the music feels as though it's becoming chaotic,  and yet somehow the strength of the performer saves it. That feeling of living with rupture, of being with breakdown of order, is something which I think of as Dionysus.

I managed to get a very poor set of mp3 downloads of Kei Koito's Art of Fugue here in France, and I do think that sometimes, not always, in some of the cpti, she gets this feeling. The textures become so complex, because of agogics, staggering, registrations, etc, it's too much to take in and you feel that the whole thing is going to reduce to chaotic noise. But it doesn't, she saves it.

I've been having a good time with Art of Fugue recently. Not just Koito but also Moroney 2, which is much more Apollonian

[alyosha]

@Mandryka: Your comments on the Harnoncourt quote are very interesting to me and bring up many issues re what music is, how we experience and understand and enjoy and learn about it, what is and what is going on in an interpretation/performance, etc. But i will control myself, excited yet still getting the feel of the forum. But i can't resist a bit of OT re Bach organ, after:

But there's something I'd like to mention here about my own musical taste. I very much like it when the music feels as though it's about to fall apart, when the music feels as though it's becoming chaotic,  and yet somehow the strength of the performer saves it. That feeling of living with rupture, of being with breakdown of order, is something which I think of as Dionysus.

This helps a lot, and again is interesting in different directions. For sure that is not Gould. The one performer i know well who seems to fit is on my shortlist of "idiosyncratics", the guitarist Eliot Fisk. He's quite controversial: some call him sloppy or worse; on the other hand he's spoken very helpfully, in my view, about the excessive concern with polish over risk-taking and spontaneous expression. I don't take him as the model for everyone, but i'm enthusiastic about having him in the mix. He transcribes and performs a lot of baroque, but i'm not aware of an AoF. Maybe we should circulate a petition -- with him i'd think we have a better than typical chance... 

[alyosha]

One immediate goal i've had in joining this thread has been to find a reasonably complete Bach organ set to serve as the focus of my return and explorations. I already had a couple, and have access to the Naxos music library, and have been buying while reading the thread and will continue...$$$... Now i'd like to put out a celebratory thanks because i believe i've fallen in love with the latest Kooiman et al set. [Edit: Special thanks to premont for bumping the set in response to my questions.] Not surprising given my focus on rhythm; and i adore the sound of the organs. There's a lot i could say but i want to keep this short. And express my thanks with what might be helpful news.

I was looking for downloads (i prefer files to plastic), and i discovered this:
http://www.qobuz.com/album/johann-sebastian-bach-oeuvres-pour-orgue-integrale/4026798107611
There are decent-length samples of all tracks, which is what helped put me over the line, vs my admittedly limited exploration of the label's admittedly limited website. Also note that it's available a bit cheaper [edit: pun not intended!] in merely CD-quality sound. Again, fine for me; in fact i'm not afraid of a little lossy compression -- i'm not trolling, honest! 0:)

I should say that on the forum where i heard about the link, another poster said something about it not being available internationally. With a sprinkling of my almost entirely forgotten french, i've written them to check.

Thanks again, so much, to everyone.

[Marc]

One immediate goal i've had in joining this thread has been to find a reasonably complete Bach organ set to serve as the focus of my return and explorations. I already had a couple, and have access to the Naxos music library, and have been buying while reading the thread and will continue...$$$... Now i'd like to put out a celebratory thanks because i believe i've fallen in love with the latest Kooiman et al set. Not surprising given my focus on rhythm; and i adore the sound of the organs. There's a lot i could say but i want to keep this short. And express my thanks with what might be helpful news. [....]

I like this Kooiman & pupils boxset very much: good choice!

[Mandryka]

The reason I didn't get it is that, as far as I could see, most of the music I'm interetsted in right now isn't played by Kooiman. And though I can hear that Kooiman is a good musician I don't know anything about the others. I'm thinking of Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein, Clavier Ubung 3, Trio Sonatas, Art of Fugue.

[prémont]

The reason I didn't get it is that, as far as I could see, most of the music I'm interetsted in right now isn't played by Kooiman. And though I can hear that Kooiman is a good musician I don't know anything about the others. I'm thinking of Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein, Clavier Ubung 3, Trio Sonatas, Art of Fugue.

In this box Kooiman plays the Leipzig chorales and half of the Orgelbüchlein. AoF is not included in the box.

It is true, that most of the "great" works are played by the pupils, but they are very good and particularly loyal to his performing style.

[Marc]

The reason I didn't get it is that, as far as I could see, most of the music I'm interetsted in right now isn't played by Kooiman. And though I can hear that Kooiman is a good musician I don't know anything about the others. I'm thinking of Leipzig Chorales, Orgelbuchlein, Clavier Ubung 3, Trio Sonatas, Art of Fugue.

Mandryka, let this be of comfort: no one will force you to buy it!



But .... yes, I agree with mr. Premont: the pupils are very good, too, without 'copybooking' their teacher. From my 'hip hop' listening experiences so far, I would probably say that Bernhard Klapprott is the most individual one, Gerhard Gnann the most straightforward, with Ute Gremmel-Geuchen as the Golden Mean.
The only real 'minus' for the box is that in the booklet, even though there are complete stoplists for the instruments, no registrations are mentioned.

[Mandryka]

In this box Kooiman plays the Leipzig chorales and half of the Orgelbüchlein. AoF is not included in the box.

It is true, that most of the "great" works are played by the pupils, but they are very good and particularly loyal to his performing style.

I didn't know that he played the Leipzig chorales there, my mistake, i'll try to hear that.

Mandryka, let this be of comfort: no one will force you to buy it!



But .... yes, I agree with mr. Premont: the pupils are very good, too, without 'copybooking' their teacher. From my 'hip hop' listening experiences so far, I would probably say that Bernhard Klapprott is the most individual one, Gerhard Gnann the most straightforward, with Ute Gremmel-Geuchen as the Golden Mean.
The only real 'minus' for the box is that in the booklet, even though there are complete stoplists for the instruments, no registrations are mentioned.

Is this because registration is a sort of secret formula which organists are unwilling to divulge, like a pork butcher might have a secret spice mixture for his sausages?

[Marc]

Is this because registration is a sort of secret formula which organists are unwilling to divulge, like a pork butcher might have a secret spice mixture for his sausages?

Dunno.
There are many international organ productions without such a list. Pity really.
But in this particular case I was a bit surprised, because I have many other Kooiman recordings with complete registration lists. He wasn't known to hide his 'secrets', he was a musician and scholar who wanted to share.
Mind you: I have the feeling that this 'sharing' thing is quite normal in the Dutch organ world, because many Dutch organ productions, on small 'domestic' labels, have complete registration lists. Personally, being a layman, I rarely use those lists whilst listening, but there are moments when I think hey, this sounds great, what's this?. In those cases, I think it's a great service to have them available. And of course it's a nice way to learn more about the instrument(s).
I also have the idea, after some personal blabbering with Dutch organists and 'real' connaisseurs and organ lovers, that to them it's almost a necessity that these lists are included.

Then again, Aeolus isn't a small Dutch label.

And perhaps Kooiman's German students are more protective towards their secrets.

[prémont]

Is this because registration is a sort of secret formula which organists are unwilling to divulge, like a pork butcher might have a secret spice mixture for his sausages?

In the preauthentic "age" registration lists were rare, but along with the growing scholarship of the organists such lists have become more common, and is now an almost mandatory part of the documentation of a recording.

Helmut Walcha never published his registrations. He said, that other organists might misunderstand his intentions and put too much authority in them.

Some of the first to publish their registrations were Lionel Rogg (true already of his first Bach set 1962) and Marie Claire Alain (complete registration list in the notes to the original LP release of her second Bach integral from 1975 - 78).  Also Anton Heiller published some of his registrations in the 1970es.

And I find it most disappointing that the Aeolus booklet doesn´t include a list of the used registrations, as much more as the set partially has been advertised as a kind of PR for the Andreas - and Johann Andreas Silbermann organs.

I have put the question in the Aeolus forum. Interesting if I get an answer. Last time I put a question there, I didn´t.

[Mandryka]

Just returning a moment to the question of rubato on the organ, this recording has a couple of transcriptions for harpsichord of organ preludes, BWV 626 and 729



He plays them with rather more flexible rubato than I remember hearing on an organ performance, though I don't have much of my music collection with me to check - it just so happens that I have the Cates CD. I thought it was interesting to see how a performer who is allegedly interetsted in period performance ideas would approach the transcription to an instrument with less sustaining power. I've only ever heard organ transcriptions played on piano before, and that more often as not by musicians who don't much interest themselvesn HIP.

Cates doesn't seem to be active in the recording studio  any more, as far as I can see. His blog is interesting and very active, well worth checking out ( http://davidcatesblog.wordpress.com/ ) It would have been interesting to hear how he plays the organ.

It's interesting how, on his blog, Cates singles out Mieczyslaw Horszowski for praise. I've seen an Italian harpsichordist do the same, either Messori or Vartolo, I can't remember.

[kishnevi]

In the preauthentic "age" registration lists were rare, but along with the growing scholarship of the organists such lists have become more common, and is now an almost mandatory part of the documentation of a recording.

Helmut Walcha never published his registrations. He said, that other organists might misunderstand his intentions and put too much authority in them.

Some of the first to publish their registrations were Lionel Rogg (true already of his first Bach set 1962) and Marie Claire Alain (complete registration list in the notes to the original LP release of her second Bach integral from 1975 - 78).  Also Anton Heiller published some of his registrations in the 1970es.

And I find it most disappointing that the Aeolus booklet doesn´t include a list of the used registrations, as much more as the set partially has been advertised as a kind of PR for the Andreas - and Johann Andreas Silbermann organs.

I have put the question in the Aeolus forum. Interesting if I get an answer. Last time I put a question there, I didn´t.

Foccroulle's recording of the Art of Fugue, which I received today, contains a listing of the registrations used for each contrapunctus.  in contrast to the box of the Complete Organ Works (also arrived today), which only lists only what organs were used to record which works.

Parenthetically,  I've a problem with my copy of the complete works---a duplicate copy of CD 10 was inserted in place of CD 5.   I immediately sent up a flare to Prestoclassical, from whom I got the set.

[alyosha]

[...] Personally, being a layman, I rarely use those lists whilst listening, but there are moments when I think hey, this sounds great, what's this?. In those cases, I think it's a great service to have them available. And of course it's a nice way to learn more about the instrument(s).

I'm not finding the time i wish i could just now. But i'm about done reading some very intro materials on the stops. And i've separated out some recent acquisitions that have this registration info, so that, starting with the movements with the fewest stops, i can learn how they sound...