J.S. Bach on the Organ

[alyosha]

Just returning a moment to the question of rubato on the organ, this recording has a couple of transcriptions for harpsichord of organ preludes, BWV 626 and 729



He plays them with rather more flexible rubato than I remember hearing on an organ performance, though I don't have much of my music collection with me to check - it just so happens that I have the Cates CD. I thought it was interesting to see how a performer who is allegedly interetsted in period performance ideas would approach the transcription to an instrument with less sustaining power. I've only ever heard organ transcriptions played on piano before, and that more often as not by musicians who don't much interest themselvesn HIP.

Cates doesn't seem to be active in the recording studio  any more, as far as I can see. His blog is interesting and very active, well worth checking out ( http://davidcatesblog.wordpress.com/ ) It would have been interesting to hear how he plays the organ. [...]

Thanks so much: The samples i was able to find were excellent, though none of the organ pieces. (Listening again at Amazon as i type.)

His blog is headed as i check with a post on "Fluidity", which in the [edit: second] sentence gets right into "subtle flexibility in the forward motion, not absolutely metronomic but rather a pulse that has the slightest bit of ebb and flow as breathing does."

And yes, always interesting to check the same performer on both instruments.

My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled. I have other ideas, but i know i'm being tempted out of my depth re organ...

As to the HIPness of transcriptions: I mentioned having a "broad" view of HIP, and one major breadth is openness to new transcriptions / instrument choices. I view that as HIP in the context of the lively transcription culture throughout the baroque generally; and of course Bach was all about it! He gives us a wealth of both support for transcription, and indications of when and how he felt it called for much change to the music. Again i'm tempted to get on a roll... Let me just step OT for a second and mention a recent acquisition that's a big favorite: Nigel North's to-me magnificent lute renditions of the complete solo music for violin and cello: http://www.linnrecords.com/collection-bach-on-the-lute-box-set.aspx Note that the site includes the "liner notes" justifying the transcriptions.

Back to organ: @ Jeffrey Smith, and thence @ Marc and premont: I checked out Prestoclassical, searched on Bach organ, and quickly came to this set of "organ" trio sonatas arranged for chamber group: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA27012 Note there's nice-length samples of all movements, extra-nice because they start at the track beginnings (listening now to this). My super-subjective reaction, re this thread: Very nicely played, and not going back on my broad HIP; but predominantly because i'm in a huge phase, i really would prefer to hear them on organ.

[alyosha]

Simple(?) question about the baroque organ as instrument: Can i safely assume that a restored-to-baroque organ has some kind of "well" but non-equal temperament? This is generally not mentioned in the liner notes i've been looking at. We've talked about registrations; they also seem to frequently mention the organ's pitch. This is natural [oo!, pun not intended! ] since the range and often sharpness of baroque organ pitch is unusual vs other instruments. I can't help but think of my clear impression that temperament (and to a lesser extent pitch) is mentioned much less often re stringed keyboard instruments than it was during the first popular wave of HIP ~30 years ago.

Sub-question, more clueless/speculative: I wonder if such baroque temperaments can be assumed in restored organs partly because, even if they were tuned equal at the time of renovation many decades ago, the temperament would have been adjusted since. ? The thing is, i know tuning an organ is a major job, but i don't know where "tuning" becomes "renovation". I'm guessing that going from equal to well with the same standard pitch could be within the range of "tuning", or not too much more.

[prémont]

Foccroulle's recording of the Art of Fugue, which I received today, contains a listing of the registrations used for each contrapunctus.  in contrast to the box of the Complete Organ Works (also arrived today), which only lists only what organs were used to record which works.

I own a small number of the original Ricercare releases of Foccroulle´s Bach organ set, and in the booklet´s contain complete listings of the organs´ dispositions and the registrations used. But as it often happens this information was not included in the rereleases.

The original release (LP) of the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt Bach sacred cantatas contained information about every instrumentalist, but this information was alas lost in the CD rerelease.

[prémont]

His blog is headed as i check with a post on "Fluidity", which in the sentence gets right into "subtle flexibility in the forward motion, not absolutely metronomic but rather a pulse that has the slightest bit of ebb and flow as breathing does."

I only know Cates from his recording of the French suites. It seems to me, that his nice theories work better, than what we hear when he is playing.

My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled. I have other ideas, but i know i'm being tempted out of my depth re organ...

Which specific harpsichord works (by Bach) do you think of. In my opinion almost all his so-called harpsichord works can be played on the organ to great effect, except maybe works where arpeggio playing is of importance (f.i. Chromatic Fantasy, the short prelude to the a-minor fugue BWV 944 and the prelude in b-minor BWV 923).

As to the HIPness of transcriptions: I mentioned having a "broad" view of HIP, and one major breadth is openness to new transcriptions / instrument choices. I view that as HIP in the context of the lively transcription culture throughout the baroque generally; and of course Bach was all about it! He gives us a wealth of both support for transcription, and indications of when and how he felt it called for much change to the music. Again i'm tempted to get on a roll... Let me just step OT for a second and mention a recent acquisition that's a big favorite: Nigel North's to-me magnificent lute renditions of the complete solo music for violin and cello: http://www.linnrecords.com/collection-bach-on-the-lute-box-set.aspx Note that the site includes the "liner notes" justifying the transcriptions.

Agree, North is also my favorite lute player.

Back to organ: @ Jeffrey Smith, and thence @ Marc and premont: I checked out Prestoclassical, searched on Bach organ, and quickly came to this set of "organ" trio sonatas arranged for chamber group: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA27012 Note there's nice-length samples of all movements, extra-nice because they start at the track beginnings (listening now to this). My super-subjective reaction, re this thread: Very nicely played, and not going back on my broad HIP; but predominantly because i'm in a huge phase, i really would prefer to hear them on organ.

Florilegium´s triosonatas are IMO a bit fuzzy concerning the instrumentation. I think the recordings by London Baroque (scored for violin, violin(viola) and continuo) and Brook Street Band (two violins and continuo) work better.

[prémont]

Simple(?) question about the baroque organ as instrument: Can i safely assume that a restored-to-baroque organ has some kind of "well" but non-equal temperament? This is generally not mentioned in the liner notes i've been looking at. We've talked about registrations; they also seem to frequently mention the organ's pitch. This is natural [oo!, pun not intended! ] since the range and often sharpness of baroque organ pitch is unusual vs other instruments. I can't help but think of my clear impression that temperament (and to a lesser extent pitch) is mentioned much less often re stringed keyboard instruments than it was during the first popular wave of HIP ~30 years ago.

No, you can not assume that a restored baroque organ isn´t  tuned equal. . F.i. the Hagebeer/F C Schnitger organ in St. Laurenskerk, Alkmaar is tuned equal - a consequence of its restoring to the state of 1725, where F C Schnitger had it tuned equally. It is often very difficult to get detailled information about these matters, and when in doubt you have to rely upon your ear.

And even the most HIP oriented organists have recorded Bach on equally tuned organs (Weinberger, Kooiman e.g.).

[alyosha]

My sense is that playing pieces more clearly intended for harpsichord (or string keyboard) on organ is the trickier way to go. Many of these pieces rely on fast decay or anyway the relative predominance of attack to show the way through thick textures, which sustained on organ can become muddled. I have other ideas, but i know i'm being tempted out of my depth re organ...

Which specific harpsichord works (by Bach) do you think of. In my opinion almost all his so-called harpsichord works can be played on the organ to great effect, except maybe works where arpeggio playing is of importance (f.i. Chromatic Fantasy, the short prelude to the a-minor fugue BWV 944 and the prelude in b-minor BWV 923).

Oh i agree with how you put it. My basic point was that string-keyboard->organ is tricky-er than organ->string; not at all that it couldn't be done, and done beautifully.

And touche: my use of "many" in "many of these pieces" could have implied more frequent problems than is the case. Perhaps "many" pieces have moments that are troublesome, but work fine overall. And I know that HIPology has shown less separation or strict assignment, or caring by anyone at the time, than was for a long time believed -- tho that also varies with the piece.

Re types of more serious difficulties: arpeggios, yes, and chords (simultaneous, rolled). But it gets much harder when you add dissonance; that's where the separation really helps the ear. (A challenge rather lacking in the Goldbergs, for example.) So i'd say the Clavier-Ubung I partitas are less organ-friendly territory, especially the more chordal minor intros and sarabandes. The sarabande of the 6th/E-minor/BWV830 was what popped immediately to mind when i read your question.

To be more general about transcription* for a moment (* i need a better term for what we're talking about here -- forgive the shorthand): It's one thing for it to be "tricky" to achieve a musical [edit: i meant pleasing, expressive, etc] result. It's another kind of tricky to convey a -- how shall i say it? -- transcribed version of the original feeling, as for example i would say our buddy North generally does in that set. This as opposed to a sense of: same notes + different instrument = ~new piece.  (Again with the shorthand...) And a "new piece" is fine! So i welcome usually-string-keyboard performances on organ, let me be clear! Whether it be on the "Broad HIP" or postmodern end of my dumbbell...

All of which brings up another challenge for string->organ that may be as important but is harder to define/defend: moments where it seems the effect relies on the decay. (My mind being stuck on CUI, and wanting a "pure" example without chords/dissonance, i think first of the opening motif of the sarabande of the 4th/D-major/828.) It may be a sense of meditation, or savoring, spaciousness, hesitation/uncertainty/questioning, sadness, holding the tension but not as starkly as full sustain -- here we get into deep waters of interpretation, both in performance and in listening. But perhaps you'll agree that there are many non-rare moments like this which may be quite movingly playable on organ, but with a distinct change of the feeling conveyed...

(Later in composing this post, i reflected and could hardly remember hearing CUI on organ. A quick search turned up a couple, the most web-sample-able of which was this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WU275Q/
http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-sechs-partiten-mw0002398723
Perhaps the approach is biased in my favor, but i think there's plenty of material here to make both of our points. )

[Mandryka]

What you say about dissonance is interesting.

I have two organ records of AoF with me at the moment, Koito and Walcha. Walcha is less dissonant and more transparent. Koito is texturally varied, thick blended dissonant passages and pretty transparent passages too.

In terms of authenticity I don't know what to think. Maybe complex opaque passages are part of the meaning of fugues. Like little mysteries which we struggle to get our minds round.

[alyosha]

No, you can not assume that a restored baroque organ isn´t  tuned equal. . F.i. the Hagebeer/F C Schnitger organ in St. Laurenskerk, Alkmaar is tuned equal - a consequence of its restoring to the state of 1725, where F C Schnitger had it tuned equally. It is often very difficult to get detailled information about these matters, and when in doubt you have to rely upon your ear.

And even the most HIP oriented organists have recorded Bach on equally tuned organs (Weinberger, Kooiman e.g.).

Thanks so much; and semi-apology for not finding -- or actually i think remembering, from all the GMG reading i've done in recent months -- this:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21168.msg680744.html#msg680744
-- Though this doesn't directly address temperament as part of the HIP package...

And did you never follow up on

Part two of my post will be the listing of some examples of Bach organ recordings on instruments tuned unequally.

?? I and maybe others would be very interested!

After all i've seen so far at this early stage for me, i'm still curious re HIP. I don't think there's been discussion of temperament in this thread, to match the at times scholarly detailed concern with other aspects of the instruments. And there's controversy about temperament, including Bach's preferences (at different times?) and the instruments he had to play on. But assuming sufficient well-vs-equal preference/practice by at least the earlier Bach, i ask the thread:

   
• How important to you is non-equal temperament to a "fully HIP" Bach organ instrument/performance?

[alyosha]

Knud Vad is a pupil of Anton Heiller and contemporary with Wolfgang Stockmeier and Peter Hurford, and his interpretation is - like theirs - marked by the transition period from "preauthentic" to "authentic" style, which is to say, that his style is not completely up to the informed style we are used to to day. He has f.ex.got an inclination for legato touch, and there are some unnecessary changes of registration first and foremost in the choral free works. [...]

   
• General question: Would you (or anyone ) please offer other names (with or without other comments) that fit this transitional category?

   
• Specific question: Is E.Power Biggs another example?

I ask in part to assemble my list and history. But also because he was the main performer whose recordings i listened to as a child -- with MC Alain next in number. For nostalgic fun, these were the two i found in my stepfather's collection that started it all:





The second rather psychedelic cover i duplicated with tracing paper and posted on my bedroom door...

Anyway, there hasn't been much discussion of him here, and obviously i'm curious.

[Mandryka]

I only know Cates from his recording of the French suites. It seems to me, that his nice theories work better, than what we hear when he is playing.

Too romantic for you? In some of the slower movements in those suites he's not unwilling to slow down and speed up, to create tension I suppose. Not too different from Furtwangler and Mengelberg in that respect, maybe.

[alyosha]

His blog is headed as i check with a post on "Fluidity", which in the [edit: second] sentence gets right into "subtle flexibility in the forward motion, not absolutely metronomic but rather a pulse that has the slightest bit of ebb and flow as breathing does."

I only know Cates from his recording of the French suites. It seems to me, that his nice theories work better, than what we hear when he is playing.

Too romantic for you? In some of the slower movements in those suites he's not unwilling to slow down and speed up, to create tension I suppose. Not too different from Furtwangler and Mengelberg in that respect, maybe.

I liked the excerpts i was able to find on the web -- and i should admit i'm quite the split personality re critical response: i can be quick to "objectively" appreciate, but often picky re my personal preferences.

@premont: Not sure what you mean re theory vs playing. Mandryka seems to have taken you to mean you find too much flexibility of rhythm/tempo. I heard some in the slower movements, for sure; but not so much in the mid/faster ones. So i could take you the other way, because i don't always hear as much as i hope to, reading that quote.

Some further thoughts about rhythmic flexibility, FWIW: I've already made it clear that i prize such flexibility (appropriate to HIP, or effective communication, or whatever the case may be). But perhaps i come across as prioritizing that more than i actually do. I'd have a similar reaction if there were many recordings with little change in dynamics, or re organ perhaps constant registration. The feeling is that one of the basic musical elements is being neglected, not that it's the main one. Leave out any of these elements and the music doesn't seem fully alive to me.

Now i should say: once it does feel present, then there's wide room for critique, and taste, etc. At least a little vs none is the biggest thing; it's not necessarily "more is always better".

...Ok, okaaay!; i sometimes can be like that when i'm frisky...

[Mandryka]

One thing I really love from the pont of the flexible approach to the timings of each voice is Rübsam's Naxos BWV 652 and (especially) 653 , Leipzig chorales. Somehow what he does, and I'm not quite sure I've worked out exactly what he's doing in fact, makes the music very very interesting and complicated sounding. It's this thing about fault lines being clearly shown and the slight feeling that they may slip, but they don't. The tempo sounds good to me too.

By the way, has anyone read this yet? i'm quite tempted by it since it's a kindle book and I like kindle. And I'd like to know a bit more about the music too.

]

Re Cates, what he does in the slower bits of the French suites seems quite different to what Rübsam does, or indeed to what anyone else does.I don't know how authentic all this flexibility is in Bach (as opposed to Frescobaldi say) , but the results seem pretty nice to me.

[Sammy]

Re Cates, what he does in the slower bits of the French suites seems quite different to what Rübsam does, or indeed to what anyone else does.I don't know how authentic all this flexibility is in Bach (as opposed to Frescobaldi say) , but the results seem pretty nice to me.

What Cates does is sometimes referred to as staggering the musical lines; to me, the results are compelling.

[prémont]

Oh i agree with how you put it. My basic point was that string-keyboard->organ is tricky-er than organ->string; not at all that it couldn't be done, and done beautifully.

And touche: my use of "many" in "many of these pieces" could have implied more frequent problems than is the case. Perhaps "many" pieces have moments that are troublesome, but work fine overall. And I know that HIPology has shown less separation or strict assignment, or caring by anyone at the time, than was for a long time believed -- tho that also varies with the piece.

Re types of more serious difficulties: arpeggios, yes, and chords (simultaneous, rolled). But it gets much harder when you add dissonance; that's where the separation really helps the ear. (A challenge rather lacking in the Goldbergs, for example.) So i'd say the Clavier-Ubung I partitas are less organ-friendly territory, especially the more chordal minor intros and sarabandes. The sarabande of the 6th/E-minor/BWV830 was what popped immediately to mind when i read your question.

To be more general about transcription* for a moment (* i need a better term for what we're talking about here -- forgive the shorthand): It's one thing for it to be "tricky" to achieve a musical [edit: i meant pleasing, expressive, etc] result. It's another kind of tricky to convey a -- how shall i say it? -- transcribed version of the original feeling, as for example i would say our buddy North generally does in that set. This as opposed to a sense of: same notes + different instrument = ~new piece.  (Again with the shorthand...) And a "new piece" is fine! So i welcome usually-string-keyboard performances on organ, let me be clear! Whether it be on the "Broad HIP" or postmodern end of my dumbbell...

All of which brings up another challenge for string->organ that may be as important but is harder to define/defend: moments where it seems the effect relies on the decay. (My mind being stuck on CUI, and wanting a "pure" example without chords/dissonance, i think first of the opening motif of the sarabande of the 4th/D-major/828.) It may be a sense of meditation, or savoring, spaciousness, hesitation/uncertainty/questioning, sadness, holding the tension but not as starkly as full sustain -- here we get into deep waters of interpretation, both in performance and in listening. But perhaps you'll agree that there are many non-rare moments like this which may be quite movingly playable on organ, but with a distinct change of the feeling conveyed...

(Later in composing this post, i reflected and could hardly remember hearing CUI on organ. A quick search turned up a couple, the most web-sample-able of which was this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WU275Q/
http://www.allmusic.com/album/bach-sechs-partiten-mw0002398723
Perhaps the approach is biased in my favor, but i think there's plenty of material here to make both of our points. )

It is evident, that the Partitas BWV 825 – 30 also may serve as examples of music, where many of the movements, due to the chordal writing and the implied arpeggio execution, cannot be played on organ without some change of the expression. The sarabande´s of  the Partitas one and six, the Grave of the Sinfonia of Partita two and the Toccata of Partita six are the most obvious examples. Bach himself arranged some of his music for other instruments adding notes or thinning out the texture depending on the context,  and somewhat changing the expression, - think of the harpsichord arrangement (BWV 1062) of the Largo, ma non troppo from BWV 1043, or the organ Triosonata arrangements from Triosonatas almost surely written for strings or at least for melody instruments, or think of the organ and harpsichord version of the supposed violin concerto BWV 1052x. or the organ version (BWV 539) of the Fugue from the violin sonata BWV 1001. Even if he may have made these arrangements  in the first hand for "practical" reasons, I do not think an organ rendering of music written more idiomatic  for harpsichord or other instruments should  be a bad thing, as it can be done "in baroque organ style" and may serve to broaden our view upon the music.  Having said that I do not think that these Partitas (because of their prevalent  two-part or three-part writing) should be played on a big organ with 16F plenum up to mixtures, but that only 8F and 4F principals and flutes should be used, registrations of a kind which also seem optimal for the Triosonatas. 

I do not quite understand your point about dissonance. Is dissonance harder to execute on an organ to great effect? Think of the g-minor Fantasy BWV 542.

We mentioned the rhythmic rubato somewhere above. It seems to me, that the notation of the first seven notes of the Toccata of the e-minor Partita (and similar passages) represents some kind of written-out rhythmic rubato. The notes should not be played metrically neither on harpsichord nor on organ, and the point is, that the first note steals a little time from the succeeding six notes. I also think, that the " groups of seven semiquavers in bar three and four (and similar passages) should be played in the same way.

Concerning the first two bars of the Sarabande of the D-major Partita and the tonal decay of the harpsichord:  On the organ you must release the last note (the high a) relative early to let the acoustics of the room (often a church) handle the decay, if you want to achieve a harpsichord-like effect , where this note so to say "hangs in the air".

I have not heard HansJörg Albrecht´s version of the Partitas, but shall acquire them all the same.

[prémont]

How important to you is non-equal temperament to a "fully HIP" Bach organ instrument/performance?

It is not of vital importance, even if I much prefer a non-equal tuned organ. But a number of historical organs are tuned equal, whether original or fully restored, and a number of important organists have recorded Bach on equal tuned organs. So I have to accept this.

I suppose, that Bach when playing at recitals abroad in Germany, did not ask to get the organs completely retuned to serve his favorite tuning. This would have been completely ondoable.

[prémont]

General question: Would you (or anyone ) please offer other names (with or without other comments) that fit this transitional category?]

Specific question: Is E.Power Biggs another example?

Yes, Power Biggs (interestingly Power means Kraft in German) and also many organists of the Leipzig school (Berlin classisc box) including Karl Richter. Others are Heinz Wunderlich and Michael Schneider.

[prémont]

Too romantic for you? In some of the slower movements in those suites he's not unwilling to slow down and speed up, to create tension I suppose. Not too different from Furtwangler and Mengelberg in that respect, maybe.

No, not romantic but too free, making a casual impression. Rübsam is also very free, but I do not find that his rubato is casual. Both are probably within the limits of the style, even if we know very little about how much rubato was used at the time.

[prémont]

I am looking at the French Suites CD by David Cates and something that struck me as different is his insertion of a prelude from one of Bach's other works in the same key prior to each of suites.  Some come from the WTC others from elsewhere.

Is this typically done?  I've not seen it before, although I have far from an exhaustive experience with the French Suites..

Watchorn does, and he uses almost the same preludes. It is a strange idea to use precomposed and not ideally suited (pun not intended) preludes, where the preludes ought to be improvised.

However two of the preludes may claim a minimal degree of authenticity, if transmitted only in Bach-pupils autographs: The preludes to the fourth (free composition by anonymous) and the sixth French suite (the prelude to the E-major fugue from WTC book I).

[alyosha]

One thing I really love from the pont of the flexible approach to the timings of each voice is Rübsam's Naxos BWV 652 and (especially) 653 , Leipzig chorales. Somehow what he does, and I'm not quite sure I've worked out exactly what he's doing in fact, makes the music very very interesting and complicated sounding. It's this thing about fault lines being clearly shown and the slight feeling that they may slip, but they don't. The tempo sounds good to me too.

Thanks so much for this. Rubsam continues to be a favorite on my non-HIP through "idiosyncratic" side. I'm able to listen to a great deal of his recordings on the naxos site, and i do see what you mean about those pieces.

I must say, though, that i'm emphasizing HIP while i get my bearings. (That's one of my pro-HIP arguments when it's up for debate: learning the "local language" as background for any other preferred style.)

I also like the range and pattern of issues you've raised throughout this thread -- they all interest me as well. So please keep posting pieces and recordings that strike you...

[Mandryka]

Thanks so much for this. Rubsam continues to be a favorite on my non-HIP through "idiosyncratic" side. I'm able to listen to a great deal of his recordings on the naxos site, and i do see what you mean about those pieces.

I must say, though, that i'm emphasizing HIP while i get my bearings. (That's one of my pro-HIP arguments when it's up for debate: learning the "local language" as background for any other preferred style.)

I also like the range and pattern of issues you've raised throughout this thread -- they all interest me as well. So please keep posting pieces and recordings that strike you...

Well, you know that I don't find the HIP/nonHIP distinction particularly helpful, and the case of Rüsbam is a good illustration of why.  I suspect Rübsam would say that his style is as informed as anyone's.

For  what it's worth my own thinking about music was very much inspired by politics raher than history, especially the paper on Talking Politics in the Bach Year by Susan McClary, and the book on Noise by Jacques Attali.