J.S. Bach on the Organ

[marvinbrown]

Well, listen again to Koopman in BWV 656 and to Hurford in the same music and see if you still think that.

  Very well. I was referring to the sets as a whole. Now I am sure there will be some pieces here and there where Koopman is more impressive. Are there any other pieces where you prefer the Koopman over the Hurford? Or do you prefer the Koopman set as a whole to the Hurford?

  marvin

[Sammy]

Well, listen again to Koopman in BWV 656 and to Hurford in the same music and see if you still think that.

I agree that Koopman's 656 is a fantastic performance, so majestic and intense.  Hurford isn't exactly a "scrub" either with his very exciting performance. 

Of course, as Marvin points out, this is just one work.  Overall, I prefer Hurford; Koopman's never been my cup of tea whether it's on harpsichord, organ or directing choral works.

[SonicMan46]

Maybe we need yet another poll - 

I had just a handful of Bach's organ works (including a 2-CD Hurford set) when I decided to buy the Koopman box set (suspect the price was $50 or less) - but recent discussion has piqued my interest for Vernet (now about $100 @ JPC, as already mentioned) - I've not heard any of his performances but for members who know aurally Koopman & Vernet, who might be your first choice?  Thanks - Dave

[Mandryka]

  Very well. I was referring to the sets as a whole. Now I am sure there will be some pieces here and there where Koopman is more impressive. Are there any other pieces where you prefer the Koopman over the Hurford? Or do you prefer the Koopman set as a whole to the Hurford?

  marvin

One piece I listen to a lot by Koopman is the trio sonata BWV527. I just jumped in with that comment about the Bwv 656 because  coincidentally I'd heard both Koopman and Hurford play it today - I'm on a little Leipzig Chorale exploration.

[Mandryka]

I agree that Koopman's 656 is a fantastic performance, so majestic and intense.  Hurford isn't exactly a "scrub" either with his very exciting performance. 

Of course, as Marvin points out, this is just one work.  Overall, I prefer Hurford; Koopman's never been my cup of tea whether it's on harpsichord, organ or directing choral works.

Hurford is tremedous towards the end of that chorale, whether he could have achieved the same effect at the end and played the rest at a slower pace, I just don't know.

[Mandryka]

Maybe we need yet another poll - 

I had just a handful of Bach's organ works (including a 2-CD Hurford set) when I decided to buy the Koopman box set (suspect the price was $50 or less) - but recent discussion has piqued my interest for Vernet (now about $100 @ JPC, as already mentioned) - I've not heard any of his performances but for members who know aurally Koopman & Vernet, who might be your first choice?  Thanks - Dave

The question is obviously very hard, so let me make a hypothesis for falsification Popper-style:

Vernet is excellent at big fugues, Koopman better at non-fugal music.

[SonicMan46]

The question is obviously very hard, so let me make a hypothesis for falsification Popper-style:

Vernet is excellent at big fugues, Koopman better at non-fugal music.

Thanks Mandryka - but at the moment Koopman is more frugal -   

But, since these are moderate sized boxes and if I did buy the Vernet, I'd sell off the other (just me and can't change -  ) - Dave

[Mandryka]

Just thinking about the organists who have come up, Koopman, Vernet, Hurford, and Focroulle.

One place where I think Koopman is very fine is BWV 678, intense, poetic, serious, with gravitas, noble, inward looking. It's not a performance which is "strong" or exuberant, quite the opposite, but that's not necessarily a problem. A lot depends on how you respond to the ornamentation of course, I don't find what he does a hurdle. I prefer what Koopman does here to Vernet (which I'm glad to have), and to Foccroulle.

Hurford is also undoubtably excellent in BWV 678 in a different way, I wouldn't like to rank Koopman and Hurford here, both so different.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks Mandryka - but at the moment Koopman is more frugal -   

But, since these are moderate sized boxes and if I did buy the Vernet, I'd sell off the other (just me and can't change -  ) - Dave

Well, I could not resist the JPC offering which was 58.8 Euros w/o VAT, so about $81 - added 7 more CPO discs on sale (all < 10 Euros) to balance out that high shipping rate to the USA (12.99 Euros) - w/ a little holiday $ from my brothers & selling the Koopman box, I feel my price was about half of that amount - looking forward to hearing Vernet's performances.  Dave

[jlaurson]

I got George Ritchie in the mail, at last. Very curious, indeed.

[Mandryka]

I got George Ritchie in the mail, at last. Very curious, indeed.

Please comment on his Art of Fugue when you've had a chance to hear it,

[jlaurson]

Please comment on his Art of Fugue when you've had a chance to hear it,

Would, but that's not part of this set.
His KdF is on this DVD/CD set:


J.S. Bach,  Die Kunst der Fuge
George Ritchie, Christoph Wolff
Fugue State Films
German link - UK link

[Mandryka]

Over the past few weeks I've been listening to the Leipzig chorales, really with an eye for performance which reflect the original hymn poetically. This is the playlist I came up with:

651 Hurford, Knud Vad
652 Rübsam (Naxos)
663 Kraft, Vad
654 Rübsam (Naxos), Oster
655 Astronio
656 Koopman (Novalis)
657
658 Astronio
659 Rübsam (Naxos) , Knud Vad
660 Walcha (mono), Astronio
661 Rübsam (Naxos), Herrick
662 Weinberger
663 Leonhardt , Bryndorf
664
665 Rogg, Astronio
666 Rübsam (Naxos)
667 Rubsam (Naxos)
668 Knud Vad

Generally I was very pleased to find Knud Vad's set, I like the organ he uses a lot and I thought the interpretations were often sensitive and imaginative. I was disappointed by Ewald Kooiman on Aeolus. I thought the sound of the Johann Andreas Silberman organs sounded a bit funny in this music and I thought the interpretations were often lifeless.

I haven't found anything I really like in 657, I'll go back to it. I've ordered a late recording that Hurford made (on EMI Eminence) so I have some hopes left. Same story with 664, though Rubsam's on Naxos and Koopman's are certainly interesting -- sometime I'll revisit those to. The big mystery performance, so strange , is Astronio's 666. why does he play it like that?

[marvinbrown]

  Oh come on.......come on! Weinberger or Alain 3 for an HIP set? HELP ME CHOOSE!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

  marvin

[prémont]

  Oh come on.......come on! Weinberger or Alain 3 for an HIP set? HELP ME CHOOSE!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

  marvin

Difficult choice. Weinberger is more uneven than Alain, but his set is more complete and he uses a wide spectrum of interesting and well restored historical organs. Alain is generally the more musically satisfying. With a gun pointing towards my head: Of these two I would say Alain.

[Marc]

  Oh come on.......come on! Weinberger or Alain 3 for an HIP set? HELP ME CHOOSE!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

  marvin

Foccroulle.



Of the two mentioned: my guess is that you yourself might prefer Alain. Weinberger can be quite 'stiff' HIP sometimes.

And after buying Alain 3, you buy Weinberger's Kunst der Fuge, including the 'new' organ fantasia Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält BWV 1128.

[Mandryka]

Here's what you should do.

If you buy Alain, then you get no AoF. So buy Weinberger's AoF first. Ask yourself if that style is so magical for you that you must hear more. If so, then buy Weinberger, be prepared to be disapponted by some and thrilled by some. You then buy Alain about one month later, when you've become pissed off by Weinberger's Leipzig chorales etc.

If you don't like the Weinberger Aof, buy Alain and Foccroulle's Art of Fugue.

Simples.

[Marc]

No no NO!

Do THIS: buy the entire Bach organ caboodle, listen to the entire kit, then keep the stuff you like and sell the unworthy shambles at a grotesque price.

[marvinbrown]

Here's what you should do.

If you buy Alain, then you get no AoF. So buy Weinberger's AoF first. Ask yourself if that style is so magical for you that you must hear more. If so, then buy Weinberger, be prepared to be disapponted by some and thrilled by some. You then buy Alain about one month later, when you've become pissed off by Weinberger's Leipzig chorales etc.

If you don't like the Weinberger Aof, buy Alain and Foccroulle's Art of Fugue.

Simples.

  I think I am going with your final suggestion, Alain 3 and Foccroulle's AOF. I'll still be missing many of the variation pieces of the Weinberger set, but I would much rather have a more musically satisfying set than one that is more COMPLETE but more "uneven."

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

No no NO!

Do THIS: buy the entire Bach organ caboodle, listen to the entire kit, then keep the stuff you like and sell the unworthy shambles at a grotesque price.

  I wish I could afford to do that. 

  marvin