J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

Mandryka, you mention BWV 689, but I think one should read 686. Right?

If so, check out (or buy) this one: Van Doeselaar playing the 'grand' chorales of the Clavierübung 3.



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kyrie-Gott-Vater-Ewigkeit-Doeselaar/dp/B00000JPYK/

http://www.channelclassics.com/kyrie-gott-vater-in-ewigkeit.html

I like the entire disc, and I like the Hagerbeer/Schnitger in Alkmaar NL very much, too.



But .... we seem to have different taste, so remember, if you take my advice .... don't forget it's risky!

I know just the first CD of  that one and I like some of what he does there, and I'm even more keen  on this one. I guess that's what you were thnking of when you mentioned Alkmaar.



If you've heard Messori's I'd be interested to know what you make of it -- I mean his 686. I played it again last night and though I think it's too overbearing, I tolerated what he does better than before. The organ sound is heavy-issimo.

Let me ask a question. Why does Knud Vad sound so very different at the start of 686? Is he using Organum Plenum? I didn't much enjoy the performance by the way.

[Marc]

I know just the first CD of  that one and I like some of what he does there, and I'm even more keen  on this one. I guess that's what you were thnking of when you mentioned Alkmaar.



If you've heard Messori's I'd be interested to know what you make of it -- I mean his 686. I played it again last night and though I think it's too overbearing, I tolerated what he does better than before. The organ sound is heavy-issimo.

Let me ask a question. Why does Knud Vad sound so very different at the start of 686? Is he using Organum Plenum? I didn't much enjoy the performance by the way.

Yes, somehow Bach/Van Doeselaar/Alkmaar has become another Holy Trinity to me.

About the other two:

Messori:
Instrument: (very much) OK.
Registration: OK.
Playing: I find this interpretation rather tiresome. The ritenuto at the end of each line doesn't appeal to me. It sounds as if the sinful man is thinking: errr, well, what more do I have to whine about?

Vad:
Instrument: OK. One of the better Marcussen-organs IMHO. The recording sound is a bit 'hissy' though.
Registration: indeed, this is not in Organo pleno. It's 'only' a 2 Clav. et Pedalo doppio.
Playing: because of this chamber-like registration, it is something (completely) different. But it isn't my deep despair, that's for sure. IMO, this kind of interpretation would be more suitable for f.i. BWV 639 Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ.

[Mandryka]

I immediately thought of Bram Beekman, but, alas, Out Of Print!

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

Au contraire .... well, my own experiences with this piece and its recordings were described in my earlier post.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

That Cor van Wageningen 686, do you think he's telling a story with the music? It's interesting how calm it is at the start. And how luminous it sounds. And how uniform the texture is.

[Marc]

That Cor van Wageningen 686, do you think he's telling a story with the music? It's interesting how calm it is at the start. And how luminous it sounds. And how uniform the texture is.

Van Wageningen's intentions?
If I only knew ....

I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, but I'm convinced everything is well thought-out by Van Wageningen and his performance is getting more convincing and mesmerizing during the piece.

And he's helped by a great instrument.

I'm longing for anothing organ summer.

[prémont]

I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, but I'm convinced everything is well thought-out by Van Wageningen and his performance is getting more convincing and mesmerizing during the piece.

But a faster tempo and less legato would make him sound like many others. It is first and foremost his slow tempo and rather legato, which makes his interpretation so special and fascinating.

[Marc]

But a faster tempo and less legato would make him sound like many others. It is first and foremost his slow tempo and rather legato, which makes his interpretation so special and fascinating.

I agree.

[....] I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') [....]

I can 'endure' many different performances in Bach's organ works, and Van Wageningen's entire disc is certainly one of them, with BWV 686 as a highlight. But if I had to describe my own preferences in this piece, then I would say something like ....

[....] I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, [....]

[Mandryka]

I immediately thought of Bram Beekman, but, alas, Out Of Print!

I must say that, from (almost) all BWV 686 performances that I've listened to, the description 'bravura' never came to my mind. In some cases I thought 'mannerism' (Kei Koito) or 'detached' (Suzuki), but never 'showing off virtuosity'.

Au contraire .... well, my own experiences with this piece and its recordings were described in my earlier post.

The Cochereau performance is too sticky for my likings, it reminds me a bit of the late romantic view upon Bach (Mengelberg might have liked it) and I find the organ and the registration rather non-appealing (it makes the piece almost ruthless sometimes), but one can sense that Cocherau is deeply moved by this composition.

Anyway, I decided to upload the Cor van Wageningen recording (again), because I think it's an interesting one (though not the 'Final Word') and apparently it's very difficult to get in touch with the record label if one doesn't live in NL.
Van Wageningen's playing the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk, Groningen, NL. It's a long performance: over 8 minutes, and it's not very HIP.

I hope the link works all right.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldmjmpgv81wldra/S%200686%20-%20CvW.mp3

I know this is cheeky, but could you upload the Bram Beekman 686? That comment you made is making me curious, and it has disappeared without trace.

[Marc]

I know this is cheeky, but could you upload the Bram Beekman 686? That comment you made is making me curious, and it has disappeared without trace.

AFAIK, it has not been placed here before.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz38o2phjz0q5jl/S%200686%20-%20BB.mp3

As a bonus: BWV 682 by Beekman, one of my favourites. It's transparent and lucid, and beautifully registrated. I'm not really a connaisseur of organ stops, but I think it's the Vox Humana of the Bovenwerk which is really mesmerizing me.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y2p537dypcvv869/S%200682%20-%20BB.mp3

Beekman is playing the organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam (Schonat 1655, Hagerbeer 1673, Duyschot 1697, Bätz 1840, Marcussen 1981):

http://www.orgelsite.nl/amsterdam2.htm

The original 2-cd was produced in 1993 as part of the Lindenberg series and this particular issue (Bach organ works Volume 5) was sold out rather quickly.
Lindenberg was a Dutch book/record shop. The firm got bankrupt in 2008. Pity, because their organ catalogue was very good, even though many OOP issues weren't re-released.

[prémont]

Premont said:  But a faster tempo and less legato would make him sound like many others. It is first and foremost his slow tempo and rather legato, which makes his interpretation so special and fascinating.

Marc said: I agree.

Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2014, 11:38:46

I can 'endure' many different performances in Bach's organ works, and Van Wageningen's entire disc is certainly one of them, with BWV 686 as a highlight. But if I had to describe my own preferences in this piece, then I would say something like ....

Quote from: Marc on January 21, 2014, 10:04:12 AM

[....] I personally would prefer a faster tempo and less legato to make it more poignant, [....]

I think we use the word "prefer" in a slightly different meaning. I can say, that I "prefer" that van Wageningen plays in the way he does, so that I can listen to him, when I am in the mood for his interpretation.

[Marc]

I think we use the word "prefer" in a slightly different meaning. I can say, that I "prefer" that van Wageningen plays in the way he does, so that I can listen to him, when I am in the mood for his interpretation.

So, even though we use "prefer" in a different meaning, we both agree that Van Wageningen adds a big plus to the BWV 686 recording catalogue.

And what about mr. Beekman?
Have you ever heard of him?

[prémont]

So, even though we use "prefer" in a different meaning, we both agree that Van Wageningen adds a big plus to the BWV 686 recording catalogue.

Precisely. 

And what about mr. Beekman?
Have you ever heard of him?

Yes, a kind forum friend helped me to get hold of his integral.  But I have not listened to his CÛ III recently. Inspired by Mandryka I am listening to some of the recordings I own of this work, and Beekman´s will be among them as well as the recordings by Piet Wiersma and Wim van Beek, both of whom I appreciate as much as Beekman.

[Mandryka]

AFAIK, it has not been placed here before.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz38o2phjz0q5jl/S%200686%20-%20BB.mp3

As a bonus: BWV 682 by Beekman, one of my favourites. It's transparent and lucid, and beautifully registrated. I'm not really a connaisseur of organ stops, but I think it's the Vox Humana of the Bovenwerk which is really mesmerizing me.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y2p537dypcvv869/S%200682%20-%20BB.mp3

Beekman is playing the organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam (Schonat 1655, Hagerbeer 1673, Duyschot 1697, Bätz 1840, Marcussen 1981):

http://www.orgelsite.nl/amsterdam2.htm

The original 2-cd was produced in 1993 as part of the Lindenberg series and this particular issue (Bach organ works Volume 5) was sold out rather quickly.
Lindenberg was a Dutch book/record shop. The firm got bankrupt in 2008. Pity, because their organ catalogue was very good, even though many OOP issues weren't re-released.

Much appreciated. Thanks.

[Mandryka]

Precisely. 

Yes, a kind forum friend helped me to get hold of his integral.  But I have not listened to his CÛ III recently. Inspired by Mandryka I am listening to some of the recordings I own of this work, and Beekman´s will be among them as well as the recordings by Piet Wiersma and Wim van Beek, both of whom I appreciate as much as Beekman.

Is this the recording by Wim van Beek you mean

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/concert/wim-van-beek-der-aa-kerk

I like it very much. Is this the Wiersma CD you mean?

[prémont]

Is this the recording by Wim van Beek you mean

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/concert/wim-van-beek-der-aa-kerk

I like it very much. Is this the Wiersma CD you mean?

As to van Beek this one:

http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,8660/category_id,74/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,39/

and as to Wiersma Vol. I in his Bach in Groningen series, since long out of print.

[Marc]

Is this the recording by Wim van Beek you mean

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/concert/wim-van-beek-der-aa-kerk

I like it very much. Is this the Wiersma CD you mean?

Good Googling indeed!



The Van Beek performance you found (another great one) is a live recording, broadcoasted on the Dutch radio in 1974, shortly before the Schnitger/Timpe organ of the Der Aa Kerk had to be put out of use because of collapsing danger.

I think that Premont was referring to Van Beek's complete CU3 recording for the (Dutch) Helior label, played on the other famous Schniger et al organ in Groningen (Martinikerk). Unfortunately their website link (http://www.helior.nl/‎) didn't work for me anymore.

If you're interested in Van Beek's Bach issues, then you might try the Dutch company Boeijenga Music in the city of Leeuwarden. Here are some links:
http://www.boeijengamusic.com/home.aspx
http://www.boeijengamusic.com/contact.aspx

About Piet Wiersma: he started with a Bach in Groningen integral around 2000 for the (Dutch) label Eurosound. For this project, Wiersma picked only historical organs from the province of Groningen. It's a real pity that Wiermsa never completed this integral, because IMHO there are many exceptionally beautiful village organs in Groningen. (I've experienced a few 'live in concert'.) The organist died of a stroke in 2003, a couple of hours after he recorded part 2 of Volume 7 on the Lohman organ in Eenrum.

Your picture refers to Volume 5, but the complete CU3 was issued as Volume 1 (again on the Martinikerk organ). This issue was sold out almost within a year or two.
AFAIK, the label Eurosound doesn't exist anymore, there are only a few Wiersma volumes still available in NL (most of them used copies) and there is no chance of a reprint.

EDIT: saw that Premont already replied, but maybe there is some useful additional info in my post.

[prémont]

EDIT: saw that Premont already replied, but maybe there is some useful additional info in my post.

Yes, but it seems as if van Beek´s CUIII is easier to aquire at Landgoed Gerianna.

[Marc]

A new release of Marie-Claire Alain.



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-pieces-Erato-Story/dp/B00I5OZ1TI/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Recorded in February 1954 in Paris, l'église Saint-Merry, on the reconstructed Clicquot organ, not long after the restoration by Victor Gonzalez.

Yes, Alain's playing improved during the years, and yes, it's mono, but I think this one is almost mandatory for Bach, organ and Alain lovers .... and aren't we all?

[Marc]

From another thread:

The Netherlands Bach Society has started the All Of Bach website.

Their aim is the perform and post online every one of Bach's 1080 catalogued works. At one work posted per week, (Fridays, if you are interested), the project will be complete in the year 2035, Friday, late November.

So far just 6 works online, but there is information, a video of performance and other goodies for each work.

Really folks, check out this site!

I'm already in Bach's Organ Heaven after listening to BWV 565 (Leo van Doeselaar, Schnitger et al organ, Martinikerk, Groningen) and BWV 593 (Reitze Smits, Bätz organ, Lutherse Kerk, Den Haag).

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-565/detail/

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-593/detail/

This is gonna be a fantastic project!

[jlaurson]

From another thread:

Really folks, check out this site!

I'm already in Bach's Organ Heaven after listening to BWV 565 (Leo van Doeselaar, Schnitger et al organ, Martinikerk, Groningen) and BWV 593 (Reitze Smits, Bätz organ, Lutherse Kerk, Den Haag).

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-565/detail/

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-593/detail/

This is gonna be a fantastic project!

Very neat, indeed!!!

[Moonfish]

From another thread:

Really folks, check out this site!

I'm already in Bach's Organ Heaven after listening to BWV 565 (Leo van Doeselaar, Schnitger et al organ, Martinikerk, Groningen) and BWV 593 (Reitze Smits, Bätz organ, Lutherse Kerk, Den Haag).

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-565/detail/

http://allofbach.com/nl/bwv/bwv-593/detail/

This is gonna be a fantastic project!

Very impressive!