Bernstein says that Beethoven was the greatest composer

[Norbeone]

Saul, why don't you demonstrate, using musical terms, what makes Mendelssohn a greater composer than Beethoven? I think that's at least what you should be doing if you'd like more serious and 'civil' discussion.

[Saul]

Saul, why don't you demonstrate, using musical terms, what makes Mendelssohn a greater composer than Beethoven? I think that's at least what you should be doing if you'd like more serious and 'civil' discussion.

His music has the charm, beauty, color that Beethoven lacks. Mendelssohn's music also has a very personal and deep voice, that comes from the very essence of Mendelssohn. One needs to be attentive to that voice when listening to Mendelssohn. Every single note in a Mendelssohn work was thought over and has a meaning and place in there.  When Mendelssohn was 15 his music teachers have told him that they have nothing else to teach him. His education in music was extremely great, and that was evident in his works. He knew what he was doing when he was writing a piece of music.

[Florestan]

Beethoven's music also has a very personal and deep voice, that comes from the very essence of Beethoven. One needs to be attentive to that voice when listening to Beethoven. Every single note in a Beethoven work was thought over and has a meaning and place in there. 

Now finally I can agree with you. 

[Saul]

Now finally everyone can see that I am a nerd. 

Well if you say so...

[karlhenning]

His music has the charm, beauty, color that Beethoven lacks.

That is nonsense; Beethoven's music has charm, beauty & color, as well.

Mendelssohn's music also has a very personal and deep voice, that comes from the very essence of Mendelssohn. One needs to be attentive to that voice when listening to Mendelssohn. Every single note in a Mendelssohn work was thought over and has a meaning and place in there.

Everything you've said there, can be said equally of Beethoven (as Andrei indicates).

When Mendelssohn was 15 his music teachers have told him that they have nothing else to teach him.

I suppose that is partly because Mendelssohn did not have such fine teachers as did Beethoven, who (you recall) studied partly with Haydn.  While a nice anecdote, this statement means nothing to the question of which of the two is a 'greater' composer.

His education in music was extremely great, and that was evident in his works. He knew what he was doing when he was writing a piece of music.

Again, this can be said equally of Beethoven.

So far, Saul, you have simply failed to make a case that Mendelssohn is at all greater than Beethoven.

[Florestan]

Well if you say so...

At least a nerd has something that you'll never have: solid knowledge. 

[karlhenning]

Andrei, I hate to break this to you: I have known many nerds, and you are no nerd 

[Florestan]

Andrei, I hate to break this to you: I have known many nerds, and you are no nerd 

Given the context, who knows what Saul means by "nerd"? 

[BachQ]

I have no idea what on earth age has to do with the matter -

You'll understand when you get older ......

[Mark]

Thank you for your civil disagreement, perhaps Mark and Florestan can take lessons from you in debating.....

But nevertheless, I disagree with you.

Of course you do. Because it doesn't sit nicely with your cosy, wholly unrealistic view of life, the universe and everything.

As for debating skills, you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. And civility? I'll start being civil when you stop being a zealot.

[(poco) Sforzando]

One of Mendelssohn's great achievements when he was young was to recognize the importance of Beethoven's late music, at a time when the late sonatas and quartets were casually dismissed as the ravings of a madman. In "The Romantic Generation," Charles Rosen demonstrates how in some of his early music, Mendelssohn takes late Beethoven as his model, and paradoxically is most himself the more he actually imitates Beethoven. (An example is the early E major piano sonata, whose first movement Rosen shows is modelled on the opening movement of Beethoven's Op. 101.)

There is no question of the high regard Mendelssohn felt towards Beethoven's music. In fact, when the Swedish composer Franz Berwald met Mendelssohn in the 1830's, their encounter went badly, in part because Berwald spoke disparagingly of Beethoven's Fidelio.

So I would be careful about dissing Beethoven if one wants to prove himself a true Mendelssohnian. Mendelssohn would not have approved.

[karlhenning]

Wherever there is art, there is disagreement.

I like that; nor could I argue with it, if I tried  

[Mark]

His music has the charm, beauty, color that Beethoven lacks. Mendelssohn's music also has a very personal and deep voice, that comes from the very essence of Mendelssohn. One needs to be attentive to that voice when listening to Mendelssohn. Every single note in a Mendelssohn work was thought over and has a meaning and place in there.  When Mendelssohn was 15 his music teachers have told him that they have nothing else to teach him. His education in music was extremely great, and that was evident in his works. He knew what he was doing when he was writing a piece of music.

It's posts like this that will soon earn Mendelssohn an ill-deserved place alongside Elgar and Dittersdorf on the GMG blacklist.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Hey Saul, your greatest composer list is incomplete. The complete version is here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Komponisten

[Mark]

I like that; nor could I argue with it, if I tried  

All my own work, that quote.

[karlhenning]

It's posts like this that will soon earn Mendelssohn an ill-deserved place alongside Elgar and Dittersdorf on the GMG blacklist.

Alas, that you speak sooth!

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's posts like this that will soon earn Mendelssohn an ill-deserved place alongside Elgar and Dittersdorf on the GMG blacklist.

Well, I don't know about Dittersdorf . . .

[karlhenning]

Well, I don't know about Dittersdorf . . .

You are contesting "ill-deserved" in his case? Subtle! 

[Josquin des Prez]

The problem --- your problem, to be more specific --- is that you seem to have a inexhaustible need to exalt Mendelssohn to the status of the greatest composer who ever lived.

More to the point, his problem is that he thinks he can convince others of the supremacy of Mendelssohn on account of his precocity as a youth, as if that has any bearing to the net worth of a composer's output. Mendelssohn is the greatest composer not because he wrote the greatest music, but because he was the greatest prodigy. The logic is so fundamentally flawed it's useless to even argue with it.

[Norbeone]

His music has the charm, beauty, color that Beethoven lacks. Mendelssohn's music also has a very personal and deep voice, that comes from the very essence of Mendelssohn. One needs to be attentive to that voice when listening to Mendelssohn. Every single note in a Mendelssohn work was thought over and has a meaning and place in there.  When Mendelssohn was 15 his music teachers have told him that they have nothing else to teach him. His education in music was extremely great, and that was evident in his works. He knew what he was doing when he was writing a piece of music.

I said demonstrate musically. Aside from the fact, which Karl rightly points out, that all of these things could be applied equally and (imo) moreso to Beethoven, you have not actually made any arguement until you explain HOW and WHY Mendelssohn has these qualities.