Bernstein says that Beethoven was the greatest composer

[BachQ]

Saul, you're such a troll that if you ever holiday in a Norwegian forest, you'll have lots of big-nosed, spiky haired dwarves declaring you king.

The title King of Trolls belongs to 71 dB .........

[Saul]

Not quite. The point is the greatness, never mind the age. But at least that's a bit closer. However, the next bit:


doesn't follow on from the first, necessarily. The works Mendelssohn composed as a boy are extraordinary things for a youngster to produce, as are those composed by the young Mozart, Britten, Saint-Saens, Thomas Linley Jr, Julian Scriabin etc. Viewing them in this context, they appear to us interesting, fascinating, potentially even awe-inspiring. But we need to divorce them from this context and simply assess them as music, side by side with other composers' music if we are going if we really want to play the 'greatness' game. I have no doubt that prodigies can compose 'Great works' - I think one or two of Britten's youthful pieces are as good as any of his mature pieces, for instance - but generally speaking the interest in this music lies in the age of the composer rather than in the music itself.

A personal example - my daughter is 6 but has a reading age of at least 14 (can't be precise because she's off her school's scale for measuring such things); so let's pretend that she is, in a verysmall way, a 'prodigy'. The point is, though, that she is advanced for her age - she's still only reached a level attained by almost everyone who's reached the age of 14. It doesn't mean she is 'the greatest'*. Similarly, Mendelssohn's early works are extraordinary for someone of that age - but they only reach a level far surpassed by every other 'great composer' before or after.

*(although she is, of course)

What are you talking about? the composers you mentioned had nothing to offer that comes close to Mendelssohn's great works of early age.

[karlhenning]

As I said, a sluggard. 

Consider the ant . . . .

[lukeottevanger]

What are you talking about? the composers you mentioned had nothing to offer that comes close to Mendelssohn's great works of early age.

For one thing, I thought we'd established that the age thing really isn't important in assessing a composers musical greatness. For a second thing, I would say that Mozart's works composed at 18 or so are as impressive as those by Mendelssohn at a similar age, and likewise things like Britten's A Boy Was Born (maybe this isn't an obvious one, as Britten isn't as big a name, but the musical quality of that piece is beyond doubt - it's a piece that has been universally acclaimed and easily stands musical comparison both with the very finest music Britten wrote later and with the finest other works of its type by other composers.)

I forgot Rossini - aged 12 he wrote a series of 'sonate a quattro' which are every bit as 'charming' and about as skillful as the works of Mendelssohn at a comparable age. I used to listen to them when I was about the same age thinking 'I wish....' 

[Saul]

For one thing, I thought we'd established that the age thing really isn't important in assessing a composers musical greatness. For a second thing, I would say that Mozart's works composed at 18 or so are as impressive as those by Mendelssohn at a similar age, and likewise things like Britten's A Boy Was Born (maybe this isn't an obvious one, as Britten isn't as big a name, but the musical quality of that piece is beyond doubt - it's a piece that has been universally acclaimed and easily stands musical comparison both with the very finest music Britten wrote later and with other works of its type by other composers.)

I forgot Rossini - aged 12 he wrote a series of 'sonate a quattro' which are every bit as 'charming' and about as skillful as the works of Mendelssohn at a comparable age.

Mendelssohn's first mature Symphony in C minor was completed at 15.
His Octet at 16.
His Midsummer's night dream at 17.

End of story.

Oh and by the way, Bernstein's favorite composer was Mahler. How can you have a favorite composer and then claim that a different composer was the greatest. Truely Odd.

Arent we suppose to give greatness to what we feel connected to most?

For me Mendelssohn was the greatest composer. For others its Beethoven.

Reason?

I enjoy his music the most.

Not a good enough reason?

So its not a good enough reason.....

[knight66]

"His favourite play was the magical comedy A Midsummer Night's Dream, which inspired him at the age of 17 to write his famous concert Overture. This was completed in the summer of 1826, and first played in the family home in Berlin; it was performed in public in Stettin (now Szczecin) early the following year, and later included in many of Mendelssohn's concert programmes, not least on his visits to England. But it was not until 1843 that Mendelssohn returned to the play, to write incidental music for a production at the Prussian royal palace in Potsdam. He added to the Overture another 12 numbers: entr'actes, songs for women's (or children's) voices, shorter cues for entrances and exits, and melodramas to accompany key speeches. In some of these he quoted ideas from the Overture; and in all of them he re-entered the world which he had conjured up so miraculously 17 years earlier."

Only the overture was written when he was 17, he was much older when the rest of the music was written. I have many times read that it is remarkable that he was so consistant in style; however, looked at another way, perhaps it might be argued that he did not much develop after 17.

Mike

[PSmith08]

Mendelssohn's first mature Symphony in C minor was completed at 15.
His Octet at 16.
His Midsummer's night dream at 17.

End of story.

What story? You're just throwing facts out there and expecting us to extrapolate an argument. Not cool.

Oh and by the way, Bernstein's favorite composer was Mahler. How can you have a favorite composer and then claim that a different composer was the greatest. Truely Odd.

Not if you don't take your own opinions to be normative. That is, not unless you're both intellectually incurious and hopelessly arrogant. Bernstein was neither. He might have been a bit arrogant, but it wasn't hopeless and he was that good.

Arent we suppose to give greatness to what we feel connected to most?

Sure. If you're willing to admit that there are no objective standards for greatness, and my tuneless piano-mashing is as great as the Hammerklavier, because someone connects with my tuneless piano-mashing more.

For me Mendelssohn was the greatest composer. For others its Beethoven.

Reason?

I enjoy his music the most.

Not a good enough reason?

So its not a good enough reason.....

Sure. Fine. However, your error comes into being when you start behaving as though your opinions are normative.

[Saul]

"His favourite play was the magical comedy A Midsummer Night's Dream, which inspired him at the age of 17 to write his famous concert Overture. This was completed in the summer of 1826, and first played in the family home in Berlin; it was performed in public in Stettin (now Szczecin) early the following year, and later included in many of Mendelssohn's concert programmes, not least on his visits to England. But it was not until 1843 that Mendelssohn returned to the play, to write incidental music for a production at the Prussian royal palace in Potsdam. He added to the Overture another 12 numbers: entr'actes, songs for women's (or children's) voices, shorter cues for entrances and exits, and melodramas to accompany key speeches. In some of these he quoted ideas from the Overture; and in all of them he re-entered the world which he had conjured up so miraculously 17 years earlier."

Only the overture was written when he was 17, he was much older when the rest of the music was written. I have many times read that it is remarkable that he was so consistant in style; however, looked at another way, perhaps it might be argued that he did not much develop after 17.

Mike

Have you listened to Elijah and his Piano concerto in E minor No.3?

Two works of his "Mature" style...

[lukeottevanger]

Mendelssohn's first mature Symphony in C minor was completed at 15.
His Octet at 16.
His Midsummer's night dream at 17.

End of story.

End of what story? This silly playing with ages proves less than nothing about anything. It is undoubtedly true that Mendelssohn was a great prodigy, but that fact itself doesn't make him the greatest composer, nor can it even contribute to any argument that he could be. The age of a composer has no bearing on the greatness of the piece - it's either good or it isn't.

End of story.

Oh and by the way, Bernstein's favorite composer was Mahler. How can you have a favorite composer and then claim that a different composer was the greatest. Truely Odd.

Not odd at all. I've already done so on this thread - my favourite composer is Janacek, but I recognise that Beethoven is a greater composer. On another thread, Josh has recently said something similar re Debussy and Beethoven. Bernstein evidently felt similarly re Mahler and Beethoven. The fact that you find this hard to grasp - witness

Arent we suppose to give greatness to what we feel connected most?

is really the heart of the issue. I feel most connected to Janacek, so he is my favourite, he is the greatest so far as my own brain's music appreciation goes, but I recognise that this is a personal connection and a personal taste, and I don't give myself enough importance to assume that if it connects most to me it ought to connect to the world in the same place.

But then

For me Mendelssohn was  the greatest composers. For others its Beethoven.

Reason?

I enjoy his music the most.

Not a good enough reason?

So its not a good enough reason.....

is absolutely 100% fine, and it is certainly a good enough reason - please carry on thinking that Mendelssohn was the greatest of composers. If it stopped there no one was argue with you for even a moment, nor would they argue with Poju re. Elgar or Paul re. Schnittke etc., just as no one has ever for a moment argued with me about my own preference for Janacek or my extreme admiration for Havergal Brian (even though the latter is not universally admired round here).  But it doesn't stop there - there is always some attempt to lift personal preference and opinion onto a global plane, usually by a negative comparison with a composer who the rest of the board and the rest of the classical music world accept is not worthy of such silly, degrading nonsense. Beethoven in this case, Bach in the case of Rod Corkin.

[karlhenning]

I was going to post, but Luke's said it all much better.

And probably with more patience  0:)

[Ephemerid]

Oh and by the way, Bernstein's favorite composer was Mahler. How can you have a favorite composer and then claim that a different composer was the greatest. Truely Odd.

Really?  I think it attests to Bernstein's musical maturity-- the ability to acknowledge more than one great composer, without resorting to a restrictive hiearchy, and at the same, to be secure in one's love in their personal favourites.  

[Lady Chatterley]

I was going to post, but Luke's said it all much better.

Luke's post are some of my all time favorites,his comments are always brilliant ,fairand with-out rancour.A real pleasure to read.

[Ephemerid]

Not odd at all. I've already done so on this thread - my favourite composer is Janacek, but I recognise that Beethoven is a greater composer. On another thread, Josh has recently said something similar re Debussy and Beethoven. Bernstein evidently felt similarly re Mahler and Beethoven. The fact that you find this hard to grasp - witness

Yeah, this starting to feel a bit like deja vu... LOL

[greg]

Yeah, this starting to feel a bit like deja vu... LOL

yeah, i think i just read this thread....... today 

[Saul]

End of what story? This silly playing with ages proves less than nothing about anything. It is undoubtedly true that Mendelssohn was a great prodigy, but that fact itself doesn't make him the greatest composer, nor can it even contribute to any argument that he could be. The age of a composer has no bearing on the greatness of the piece - it's either good or it isn't.

End of story.

Not odd at all. I've already done so on this thread - my favourite composer is Janacek, but I recognise that Beethoven is a greater composer. On another thread, Josh has recently said something similar re Debussy and Beethoven. Bernstein evidently felt similarly re Mahler and Beethoven. The fact that you find this hard to grasp - witness

is really the heart of the issue. I feel most connected to Janacek, so he is my favourite, he is the greatest so far as my own brain's music appreciation goes, but I recognise that this is a personal connection and a personal taste, and I don't give myself enough importance to assume that if it connects most to me it ought to connect to the world in the same place.

But then

is absolutely 100% fine, and it is certainly a good enough reason - please carry on thinking that Mendelssohn was the greatest of composers. If it stopped there no one was argue with you for even a moment, nor would they argue with Poju re. Elgar or Paul re. Schnittke etc., just as no one has ever for a moment argued with me about my own preference for Janacek or my extreme admiration for Havergal Brian (even though the latter is not universally admired round here).  But it doesn't stop there - there is always some attempt to lift personal preference and opinion onto a global plane, usually by a negative comparison with a composer who the rest of the board and the rest of the classical music world accept is not worthy of such silly, degrading nonsense. Beethoven in this case, Bach in the case of Rod Corkin.

I don't know why after tasting 2 apples I cant make a thoughtful decision regarding which apple tastes better...

I have listened to Beethoven and Mendelssohn extensively. And I just cant find anything of Beethoven that sparks superiority On the contrary, Mendelssohn's music is of such high quality in all aspects that it made me believe that his music is superior.

It has nothing to do with religion.

As I said my favorite composer was a German, Bach and a Pole, Chopin , before Mendelssohn.
I also met German listeners who consider Mendelssohn the greatest composer who ever lived.
So why should they choose a Jew instead of someone of their own?

Well, I guess the many thousands or millions who consider Mendelssohn as the greatest composer ever, are just naive and ignorant?

Catch my drift?

[knight66]

Have you listened to Elijah and his Piano concerto in E minor No.3?

Two works of his "Mature" style...

I have both sung in chorus and as soloist in Elijah. I am not taken with large slabs of it; which are basically turgid. There are some memorable stretches, but a deal of notespinning in the choruses. 'Mighty kings by Him were overthrown' is at the level of a football chant.

St Paul is even worse. I found that although I am not a great sightreader, the first encounter I had with the piece St Paul was at audition where I had to plough through roughly twenty pages. The person conducting the audition kept me going until I made a mistake, he assumed I knew the piece. That says nothing about its quality as such; except that the music seemed to have an inevitability that I felt was unoriginal.

BTW, I like Mendelssohn's music, some of it a great deal, but I don't fettishise my personal taste to the point that what I love best must be the best music. Bernstein perhaps loved Mahler most, but to him, Beethoven was greater. He could distinguish between what was closest to his heart and who he felt displayed the greatest ability. However, I am not really interested in ranking composers. Many of them were great.

As an aside and referring back to the first pages here; if none of your posts are even implicitly about religion; why is it that all the YouTube links I have seen you connect us to are of Jewish musicians.

I guess some like to live in a ghetto of their own making.

Mike

[Saul]

As an aside and referring back to the first pages here; if none of your posts are even implicitly about religion; why is it that all the YouTube links I have seen you connect us to are of Jewish musicians.

I guess some like to live in a ghetto of their own making.

Mike

Oh Albinoni is Jewish?

Beethoven was Jewish?

So what if its Rubinstein who performs it.. big deall.. everyone heard of him and there is nothing new about it...

Looks like you are more interested in turning every single post of mine into a religious post , then me.

[greg]

Bernstein perhaps loved Mahler most, but to him, Beethoven was greater. He could distinguish between what was closest to his heart and who he felt displayed the greatest ability.

If by greater, you mean appealing to more people then yes, Beethoven is greater. But there really is no test for "greatest ability", so if he were to say that Beethoven has the "greatest ability" there would be no way to prove it. (unless ability is the measure of appeal to most people)

[karlhenning]

It is a serious disappointment to me, that Elijah and St Paul are not better than they are . . . .

[knight66]

If by greater, you mean appealing to more people then yes, Beethoven is greater. But there really is no test for "greatest ability", so if he were to say that Beethoven has the "greatest ability" there would be no way to prove it. (unless ability is the measure of appeal to most people)

It was not me who said it. I dont get into that kind of wrangle. I don't suppose we can get much further enlightenment there; unless someone cares to do a bit of research...Greg, that would be a splendid thing for you to do with your questing mind and I suspect you have the time and the ability to rip through any on-line information.

Mike