Rautavaara's Riverboat

[Grazioso]

I had my first listen to the new Ondine disc mentioned above:



and have to say I was disappointed. Admittedly, it was only one hearing so far, but based on that, the Manhattan Trilogy seems to fall in with Rautavaara's other late-period New Agey works, somewhat pleasant but ultimately rather bland and beneath what he's capable of. (Compare his works from the 60's and 70's.)

The magnificent third symphony suffers under Segerstam's hands. Here, this grand Brucknerian work too often devolves into slack sonic mush at climaxes, with important themes nearly drowned in a sea of exaggerated bass instruments (complete with farting brass at one or two points).

Compare Lintu on Naxos to hear what I mean.

[CRCulver]

After a couple of months of observing, I've just registered for these forums because I enjoy the chance to take shots at Rautavaara. The Helsinki City Library has all of his output on disc, so I've been going through it and marveling at how vacuous his music tends to be. I could compare myself to the musicologist who, repulsed by Elliott Carter's music, ended up dedicating his life to studying how music could possibly get that ugly (to him). In my case, I'm just mesmerised by how Rautavaara manages to say so little in such great spans of time, and how he keeps fulfilling commission after commission with pieces that can't be distinguished from one another.

If you browse modern-classical listings on Amazon, you may have seen my reviews which chronicle my exploration of his output. There have been a couple of pleasant surprises (though even Rautavaara's best efforts usually seem average compared to other major composers). The third, fourth and seventh symphonies, "Cantus Arcticus" (as a simple crowd-pleaser), "Angels and Visitations" are for me his only pieces that have something to say.

Rautavaara may have started a fad with the Symphony No. 7 "Angel of Light", but at least here in Finland it seems to be over. At a performance of "Book of Visions" last year, people were walking out and one person called it a "book of monotony". Though this is the Rautavaara 80th anniversary year, very little of his music has been programmed and Helsinki new music fans are interpreting it as a deliberate snub.

[btpaul674]

I wholeheartedly disagree.  Rautavaara is a composer who can 'say' ( I hate that word in this context) many different things in a short amount of time. There are Rautavaara-isms that show up in many pieces. However each of the circumstances in which these Rautavaara-isms appears differs significantly from one appearance to the next, especially in construction. A common example is many of the similarities in the 7th and 8th symphonies. Very similar construction andboth retrospective inter/intra-texturally, but completely different thematic development, different compositional methods, different textural variations. If I even tried to listen to the 8th as I listen to the 7th I think my head would explode.

Going through a few vast stylistic changes, Rautavaara has accomplished much in each one of his 'periods.' Sometimes I can't believe True and False Unicorn, the First Piano Concerto, Vigilia, and the 5th symphony come from the same composer. Hundreds of different 'voices' can be found in Rautavaara. However, he manages to keep a large intertextual vividness throughout most of his output.

Right now I am playing his two Piano Sonatas. The first movement of the first piano sonata is astounding. In a very short amount of time, and through the wonders of reflexive symmetry, Rautavaara creates a diverse contasting atmosphere with astounding play with light and color. The amount of information present in the first 25 or so bars is unbelievable.

To summarize some of the stream of thought I've put here, each one of Rautavaara's pieces is unquestionably different from one to the next. The range of influence, scope of composition, and quality of work of his oeuvre are remarkable. CRCulver, I can't believe that you find so little out of so much. Perhaps if you focus less on finding ways to attack Rautavaara's work, you could listen to what is actually unfolding.

[CRCulver]

Evidentally, the Rautavaara fad is still going on wherever you live. However, I'm sure it will pass. Funny that you defend his piano works. Looking at the documentary on an Ondine DVD of Rautavaara writing his Third Piano Concerto, you can see that Vladimir Ashkenazy was very disappointed by how little substance was in the piece (tone clusters for a while, then scales, then some more tone clusters, but never any real development). I've not yet heard the Sonatas, but certainly Rautavaara's latest big work for piano isn't magical in any way.

"Each one of Rautavaara's pieces is unquestionably different from one to the next."

I would challenge you to identify, say, a random 10-second snippet of one of his late works.

[Guido]

Looking at the documentary on an Ondine DVD of Rautavaara writing his Third Piano Concerto, you can see that Vladimir Ashkenazy was very disappointed by how little substance was in the piece (tone clusters for a while, then scales, then some more tone clusters, but never any real development).

How does he express his disappointment?

[greg]

I got the impression from various reports that he was very ill, and unlikely to be able to do much

Yeah, I saw a report about that on CNN.

[btpaul674]

Evidentally, the Rautavaara fad is still going on wherever you live. However, I'm sure it will pass. Funny that you defend his piano works. Looking at the documentary on an Ondine DVD of Rautavaara writing his Third Piano Concerto, you can see that Vladimir Ashkenazy was very disappointed by how little substance was in the piece (tone clusters for a while, then scales, then some more tone clusters, but never any real development). I've not yet heard the Sonatas, but certainly Rautavaara's latest big work for piano isn't magical in any way.

"Each one of Rautavaara's pieces is unquestionably different from one to the next."

I would challenge you to identify, say, a random 10-second snippet of one of his late works.

Really, though, it would be very easy for me to identify the piece. I'm doing a rather long narrative dissertation of Rautavaara's work. Hell, I'd probably even provide you an analysis.

I have not seen the DVD, but I can assure you of some very interesting developments in pitch collections transforming throughout that piece. I'm astounded by how much of the practice of Bartok is tightly concealed with some of the inner workings of the 3rd PC. Great piece on many levels of perception and analysis.

I will find this DVD.

Last, I am the only one in this area on a "Rautavaara Fad," using your terms. I only know other person I've met at my University knows of his work, who went to teach at UL Lafayette and now at Westminster College, PA. I've never seen a Rautavaara piece programmed or performed within hundreds of miles of me. However my recent pinings have started to open the collective eyes of musicians around me.

[Kullervo]

If you read CR's Amazon reviews, you'll see he doesn't get Sibelius, either.

[greg]

"Rautavaara fad"...... lol, someone should make that an official term.

Maybe the definition could mean something like "wishful thinking" or something.

[vandermolen]

I just bought Symphony 8 Naxos. I enjoyed it greatly but was sorry that it moved away from the thematic material of the very opening section so quickly as I would have liked that to have continued for longer.

[Harry]

I just bought Symphony 8 Naxos. I enjoyed it greatly but was sorry that it moved away from the thematic material of the very opening section so quickly as I would have liked that to have continued for longer.

Agreed!

[Christo]

I am listening to the Third Symphony (Pommer/ Leipzig Symphony Orchestra), and the opening made me smile - Bruckner 4 all over again, and no mistake. It was Forum member Christo who mentioned Rautavaara's name to me, but that was more than ten years ago... Now I am listening for the first time, and I must say - this is very atmospheric and beautiful music!

Well, dear Johan: Ten years ago ....  More, even, I'm afraid. In those days, I must have been referring to the Seventh, Angel of Light, just released by Ondine in 1996. Since then, I tremendously enjoyed the very Brucknerian Third, but I'm still not completely convinced by the others.

Not that I know them all: I missed the First and Second, so far. The Fourth `Arabescata' is a completely serialist piece I only played once or twice. Five is quite okay, another Angel symphony not totally unlike the Seventh. I missed the Sixth `Vincentiana' too, but played both the Seventh and Eight again, recently.

Well: David Hurwitz is rather critical on Naxos' New Zealanders in the Eight, and tells us to opt for either Vänskä or Segerstam, if I'm not mistaken. I should perhaps invest in one of them, then. As to the Seventh: I still prefer the first release, Segerstam at Ondine, but there's nothing wrong with Koivula conducting the Royal Scotchmen for Naxos either. But the music is ... well, very atmospheric and often beautiful, but not wholly convincing symphonically, imho, imho only.

[Dundonnell]

Well, dear Johan: Ten years ago ....  More, even, I'm afraid. In those days, I must have been referring to the Seventh, Angel of Light, just released by Ondine in 1996. Since then, I tremendously enjoyed the very Brucknerian Third, but I'm still not completely convinced by the others.

Not that I know them all: I missed the First and Second, so far. The Fourth `Arabescata' is a completely serialist piece I only played once or twice. Five is quite okay, another Angel symphony not totally unlike the Seventh. I missed the Sixth `Vincentiana' too, but played both the Seventh and Eight again, recently.

Well: David Hurwitz is rather critical on Naxos' New Zealanders in the Eight, and tells us to opt for either Vänskä or Segerstam, if I'm not mistaken. I should perhaps invest in one of them, then. As to the Seventh: I still prefer the first release, Segerstam at Ondine, but there's nothing wrong with Koivula conducting the Royal Scotchmen for Naxos either. But the music is ... well, very atmospheric and often beautiful, but not wholly convincing symphonically, imho, imho only.

I remember vividly the first time I heard the opening pages of Rautavaara's 3rd. I had bought the Ondine CD with the Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Max Pommer. I had listened to Symphonies Nos. 1 and 2 and had been moderately impressed by each without thinking that either was terribly memorable. When I started listening to No.3 I sat up in absolute amazement.....Anton Bruckner was alive and well and working in Helsinki!!
I still find it a very fine symphony indeed.

But please, Johan, not 'Royal Scotchmen'! We are Scots or Scottish!!

[Christo]

But please, Johan, not 'Royal Scotchmen'! We are Scots or Scottish!!

Oh, dear, dear. And oh dear Colin too: hardly knowing your language (indeed, always struggling with a handful of foreign languages) I was just vaguely guessing/hoping that ""scotchmen"" might have a funny antique ring - and that's why I added the royalty as well. Never ever did I want to insult the Scots, let alone you!  My sincere apologies, nonetheless.

Btw, now that you're safely back from Paris: the promised CD's with some "Royal Dutchmen" (funny that you call us "Dutch" btw, as we use that name to describe our Eastern neighbours, or for that matter "Holland"  - as they're just my neighbours to the West, being a stubborn Low Saxon  myself and convinced the oppressive state we're presently under shouldn't be called anything but "The Netherlands" ...  ) will be send soon! 

[btpaul674]

I just bought Symphony 8 Naxos. I enjoyed it greatly but was sorry that it moved away from the thematic material of the very opening section so quickly as I would have liked that to have continued for longer.

I agree and disagree. I love the very beginning, but it quickly begins wonderful material that is developed keenly. If I hadn't left the score at school I'd share specifics. I agree with Rautavaara's choice to keep this 'organism' flowering from the beginning so not to linger too long on that wonderful bassoon solo.

I'll admit, sometimes I like to linger on a passage or section over and over (by means of manually skipping back) before moving on.

[vandermolen]

I agree and disagree. I love the very beginning, but it quickly begins wonderful material that is developed keenly. If I hadn't left the score at school I'd share specifics. I agree with Rautavaara's choice to keep this 'organism' flowering from the beginning so not to linger too long on that wonderful bassoon solo.

I'll admit, sometimes I like to linger on a passage or section over and over (by means of manually skipping back) before moving on.

Point taken but I do like to repeat that opening section over and over and I wish he had done some kind of variations thing with that opening theme (you can gauge the extent of my technical knowledge from this post )

[Lethevich]

funny that you call us "Dutch" btw, as we use that name to describe our Eastern neighbours, or for that matter "Holland" 

"Nederlanders" is hard to say!

[Harry]

"Nederlanders" is hard to say!

Europeans will do nicely too Sarah!

We, that is to say us, Groningers, are in possession of the greatest gas supplies in the Netherlands, and all the riches go to the people in the West, and we profit only from their idiotic decisions. They live on the riches of others illegally taken, in fact the Netherlands exist solely on the basis of our gas supplies, o, well.......

[Dundonnell]

Oh, dear, dear. And oh dear Colin too: hardly knowing your language (indeed, always struggling with a handful of foreign languages) I was just vaguely guessing/hoping that ""scotchmen"" might have a funny antique ring - and that's why I added the royalty as well. Never ever did I want to insult the Scots, let alone you!  My sincere apologies, nonetheless.

Btw, now that you're safely back from Paris: the promised CD's with some "Royal Dutchmen" (funny that you call us "Dutch" btw, as we use that name to describe our Eastern neighbours, or for that matter "Holland"  - as they're just my neighbours to the West, being a stubborn Low Saxon  myself and convinced the oppressive state we're presently under shouldn't be called anything but "The Netherlands" ...  ) will be send soon! 

Oh yes, I know, how unnecessarily pedantic I was being! And, of course, how important it is to remember that the proper name is indeed the Netherlands and not Holland. Holland-North and South-is a region in the western part of your country.

Indeed I am back from Paris safely. What a beautifully elegant city it is! I look forward to the music to which you refer.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Oh yes, I know, how unnecessarily pedantic I was being!

Hi Colin! I think it's a mistake Netherlanders (!) often make - saying Scotch instead of Scots or Scottish. I made the error myself a few days ago (remember?)... But I am cured of it now, I hope.