Want to learn theory

[lukeottevanger]

The HBS is busy preparing printed scores (using Sibelius, the software program) of several of Brian's major scores. But this has been going on for years. I hope we'll see results before long. It's all done by enthusiasts, of course...

But not that enthusiastically, it seems. Personally, I'd happily take on the job of type-setting*. I've got Sibelius sitting here begging to be used for some worthwhile music for a change.


* I've done so before, for a much lesser composer than HB. I couldn't bring myself to lavish all my care and attention on him, though I did a good job, I think.

[lukeottevanger]

I can't even get through the Gothic without wanting to turn the noisy, ugly thing off; how am I supposed to get through 31 others? 

Why, through curiosity, open-mindedness and trust in the opinions of others, of course 

BTW, have you tried HB no 8 yet, as I recommended? It's only wafer-thin....

[greg]

Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.

well, i did a quick search for pianists......

found two, which are "largely self-taught"- Richter and Brendel......

not to mention a guitarist i had in mind, who you've probably never heard of (and who is rated as one of the greatest virtuoso guitar players of all time).....

and i'm not trying to brag, but the reason i said that was that i play this dude's stuff and i'm sure there's many other self-taught guitarists who can.....

as for violin and cello, i don't know, but there's also famous self-taught composers, too.....

a few i can think of: Telemann, Takemitsu, Elgar.

[lukeottevanger]

well, i did a quick search for pianists......

found two, which are "largely self-taught"- Richter and Brendel......

Hardly!

In any case, largely self-taught is not at all the same as entirely self-taught. I'm largely self-taught, and I consider that not a bad thing....but I wouldn't be any sort of musician at all without having had contact with real-life musicians.

not to mention a guitarist i had in mind, who you've probably never heard of (and who is rated as one of the greatest virtuoso guitar players of all time).....

and i'm not trying to brag, but the reason i said that was that i play this dude's stuff and i'm sure there's many other self-taught guitarists who can.....

as for violin and cello, i don't know, but there's also famous self-taught composers, too.....

But not entirely self-taught, again. Not even the most iconoclastic, individual figures made their way without grounding in the basics. Even Havergal Brian himself, supposedly self-taught, actually was no such thing - he was well grounded in harmony and counterpoint by a local musician. Didn't stop him developing his own very personal way forward, but it gave him a strong base to work from. Janacek is another one - such a strong personal style, forged by himself alone.....but he studied at a 'conservatoire' too, and his lessons with Skuhersky were very important to him indeed. Satie flunked at the Paris Conservatoire and found his own way afterwards...but his knowledge that he was deficient in certain areas led him, as a middle-aged man, to have the humility to take himself back to the Scola Cantorum. And so on and on... I'd say it would be impossible to find a composer who has had no formative, personal contact with more experienced musicians as a young man

[greg]

I'd say it would be impossible to find a composer who has had no formative, personal contact with more experienced musicians as a young man

well, if you're in the music business, it is likely you'll come into contact with someone, right? 

[c#minor]

If you really wanted to bite the bullet, take a class at the closest community collage that offers any fundamentals of music course and progress up to theory 2. I know that i can't learn a damned thing from books alone or those computer programs. I need someone to teach and interact with, ask questions to. But that might just be me.

c#

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Why, through curiosity, open-mindedness and trust in the opinions of others, of course 

BTW, have you tried HB no 8 yet, as I recommended? It's only wafer-thin....

Yes, Sforzando, why not try the Eighth Symphony? (NB - 33 MB!) It's the symphony that bowled over Robert Simpson so much that he had Sir Adrian Boult conduct it. Which started off a whole 'Brian Renaissance'...

[greg]

If you really wanted to bite the bullet, take a class at the closest community collage that offers any fundamentals of music course and progress up to theory 2. I know that i can't learn a damned thing from books alone or those computer programs. I need someone to teach and interact with, ask questions to. But that might just be me.

c#

i'm the complete opposite- every time people talk to me, my mind starts wandering......
depends on the person, i guess...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, Sforzando, why not try the Eighth Symphony? (NB - 33 MB!) It's the symphony that bowled over Robert Simpson so much that he had Sir Adrian Boult conduct it. Which started off a whole 'Brian Renaissance'...

I can hardly object to downloading a free MP3! (How can I resist something wafer-thin with a climax in E# major?) If I like it, I'll buy the commercial CD.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I can hardly object to downloading a free MP3! (How can I resist something wafer-thin with a climax in E# major?) If I like it, I'll buy the commercial CD.

Excellent!

(Though, with the two-fer where this came from currently OOP, this is the only way you're able it to hear at the moment... But it's the intention that matters!)

[lukeottevanger]

Excellent!

(Though, with the two-fer where this came from currently OOP, this is the only way you're able it to hear at the moment... But it's the intention that matters!)

Might be OOP, but still available. And indispensable, too - surely the Brian disc which everyone ought to hear.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Might be OOP, but still available. And indispensable, too - surely the Brian disc which everyone ought to hear.

Thanks for correcting me, Luke. And yes - this two-fer is the introduction to Brian.

[canninator]

Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.

Julian Bream was self-taught but he is very much the exception because, as you say, a teacher is a necessity. Although he was a fantastic player, he did have some unconventional aspects to his technique, probably because he was an auto-didact.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Excellent!

(Though, with the two-fer where this came from currently OOP, this is the only way you're able it to hear at the moment... But it's the intention that matters!)

What amuses me is how, on another thread, if someone calls Mozart and Beethoven "overrated," they are greeted with yawns and indifference. But say anything about Havergal Brian and Co., and there are outraged protests. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

well, i did a quick search for pianists......

found two, which are "largely self-taught"- Richter and Brendel......

not to mention a guitarist i had in mind, who you've probably never heard of (and who is rated as one of the greatest virtuoso guitar players of all time).....

and i'm not trying to brag, but the reason i said that was that i play this dude's stuff and i'm sure there's many other self-taught guitarists who can.....

as for violin and cello, i don't know, but there's also famous self-taught composers, too.....

a few i can think of: Telemann, Takemitsu, Elgar.

First of all, none of us has heard your guitar playing, and we don't know how well you play or not if you're self-taught. You say you're not trying to brag, but it's clear you think you're a pretty good instrumentalist. The problem, though, is that unless a qualified guitarist sees and hears you, you have no way of knowing if you're acquiring bad habits or have technical insufficiencies that you may not be aware of yourself.

Whenever I hear a young would-be musician going on about how many composers and other musicians are "self-taught," it's pretty clear these people have an exaggerated sense of their own merits and are unwilling to submit to the rigors that professional instruction would put them through. The argument seems to go something like this:

1) A few musicians of genius have succeeded by teaching themselves.
2) I am a musician of genius!
3) Therefore I can succeed by teaching myself!

I trust the weakness of this syllogism should be self-evident. And lest you think I'm exaggerating, I have seen numerous examples where would-be composers and instrumentalists have staunchly rejected any attempts at criticism and advice from people with more experience. These wannabees have been told since day one by "experts" (read: mom, dad, uncle Bob, themselves) that they are born geniuses; therefore, any attempt at criticism and advice can be motivated only by envy and malice. (In operatic form, this kind of attitude is documented in the character of Walther von Stolzing in the earlier acts of Wagner's Meistersinger.)

But just bear in mind while you are resisting any attempts to seek out a teacher, other wannabees are receiving expert guidance - and they're the ones who will succeed in music professionally. Sorry to be blunt about this, GGGRRREEEEGGG, but it's the truth.

I know we've left poor E..L..I..A..S.. way behind . . . .

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

What amuses me is how, on another thread, if someone calls Mozart and Beethoven "overrated," they are greeted with yawns and indifference. But say anything about Havergal Brian and Co., and there are outraged protests. 

Mozart and Beethoven are cultural facts of the first importance. They are here and will remain here as long as there are people able to play an instrument.

The case for Brian, on the other hand, isn't yet made, and his reputation is still not very high. I know the limitations of some of Brian's works very well. I have lived with his music for almost 30 years now. But I know his strengths as well, and for those I am willing to play the evangelist from time to time.

Brian at his best is second to no other composer in the twentieth century. His strongest works are as strong now as they ever were. That, to me, is a sign of his greatness (and believe me, I am a very very critical listener).

And here endeth the lesson. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

The case for Brian, on the other hand, isn't yet made, and his reputation is still not very high. I know the limitations of some of Brian's works all too well. I have lived with his music for almost 30 years now. But I know his strengths as well, and for those I am willing to play the evangelist from time to time.

Brian at his best is second to no other composer in the twentieth century. His strongest works are as strong now as they ever were. That, to me, is a sign of his greatness (and believe me, I am a very very critical listener).

I'll see and hear for myself. I am a very very very critical listener.  But your argument so far provides only assertions.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'll see and hear for myself. I am a very very very critical listener.  But your argument so far provides only assertions.

I know. They are the end result. Listen to the Eighth. And then we can discuss whether Brian amounts to anything.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I know. They are the end result. Listen to the Eighth. And then we can discuss whether Brian amounts to anything.

Fair enough, Jezetha. I've downloaded your link, burned a CD for myself, and will give it several listens with as open a mind as I have.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Fair enough, Jezetha. I've downloaded your link, burned a CD for myself, and will give it several listens with as open a mind as I have.

Thanks.