Want to learn theory

[greg]

Why? perfectly normal note. E..L..I..A..S.. (and you) should be aware that any note can either be spelled as natural (F), or can be sharped, double-sharped, flatted, or double-flatted. What has to be gotten past is the notion that these spellings have to do with the layout of the piano keyboard. F double-sharp is identical on the piano with G, and F double-flat with the note Eb or D#. The reason for these spellings has to do with the melodic and harmonic implications of the pitches, not their position on the keyboard.

yeah, i know, just always seemed silly to me. I usually avoid stuff like Db minor when writing, though..... although i'm sure i've used it before several times.

[rickardg]

ummmmmmm you don't really NEED a teacher for the above (or in addition, to play an instrument very well) although it never hurts.

OK, I admit that 'need' (and perhaps 'teacher') was a bit exaggerated.

What I meant was that most learners can strongly benefit from interacting with and carefully observing people significantly better than themselves. For learning languages just about any native speaker will do and I've learnt a lot by being the worst member of most bands I've played with.

[(poco) Sforzando]

yeah, i know, just always seemed silly to me. I usually avoid stuff like Db minor when writing, though..... although i'm sure i've used it before several times.

Db minor (and its relative major Fb) does not exist as a key signature. It would have to be a perfect fifth below Cb major/Ab minor (seven flats), and would therefore require a B-double flat in the signature, which is never used. Enharmonically of course Db minor/Fb major would be equivalent to C# minor/E major (four sharps).

[(poco) Sforzando]

ummmmmmm you don't really NEED a teacher for the above (or in addition, to play an instrument very well) although it never hurts.

Yeah, you do - especially to play an instrument very well, you really do NEED a teacher.

[lukeottevanger]

Db minor (and its relative major Fb) does not exist as a key signature. It would have to be a perfect fifth below Cb major/Ab minor (seven flats), and would therefore require a B-double flat in the signature, which is never used. Enharmonically of course Db minor/Fb major would be equivalent to C# minor/E major (four sharps).

...which isn't to say they can't be used as keys e.g. the D flat minor which Janacek used very commonly, or the climax in E sharp major in Brian's 8th Symphony; they just require the extra flats or sharps to be added into the music, not forming part of the key signature.. And of course chords spelt in this way are very common - one of the most famous chords in music is made up of an F flat major chord under a dominant seventh chord on E flat (think thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud .....)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

...which isn't to say they can't be used as keys e.g. the D flat minor which Janacek used very commonly, or the climax in E sharp major in Brian's 8th Symphony; they just require the extra flats or sharps to be added into the music, not forming part of the key signature.. And of course chords spelt in this way are very common - one of the most famous chords in music is made up of an F flat major chord under a dominant seventh chord on E flat (think thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud .....)

I am impressed at your Brianic knowledge, Luke. And your Igor is very good, too. 

[lukeottevanger]

Yes, I don't know what R3's 'Building A Library' were thinking, leaving out my rendition of the Rite from their consideration.

As for the Brian - I only saw the score for a brief time, years ago (and how I want to get my mitts on it again!) My knowledge of the E sharp major climax mostly comes from MacDonald (as usual).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes, I don't know what R3's 'Building A Library' were thinking, leaving out my rendition of the Rite from their consideration.

As for the Brian - I only saw the score for a brief time, years ago (and how I want to get my mitts on it again!) My knowledge of the E sharp major climax mostly comes from MacDonald (as usual).

Erm... not to make your mouth water, Luke, but I have several Brian scores. When I joined the HBS in 1984, the frist thing I ordered were three study scores from Musica Viva (8, 10, 21). They got lost in the post... The publisher, Graham Hatton, very kindly sent them again. And now they have been here for the last 25 years (almost). Later I bought scores from UMP (very expensive...) of the Third and Seventh. And through a friend of mine I got the Eleventh. All facsimiles, of course. The HBS is busy preparing printed scores (using Sibelius, the software program) of several of Brian's major scores. But this has been going on for years. I hope we'll see results before long. It's all done by enthusiasts, of course...

[lukeottevanger]

Erm... not to make your mouth water, Luke, but I have several Brian scores. When I joined the HBS in 1984, the frist thing I ordered were three study scores from Musica Viva (8, 10, 21). They got lost in the post... The publisher, Graham Hatton, very kindly sent them again. And now they have been here for the last 25 years (almost). Later I bought scores from UMP (very expensive...) of the Third and Seventh. And through a friend of mine I got the Eleventh. All facsimiles, of course. The HBS is busy preparing printed scores (using Sibelius, the software program) of several of Brian's major scores. But this has been going on for years. I hope we'll see results before long. It's all done by enthusiasts, of course...

Musica Viva's 8 10 and 21 were the ones I saw too, as a teenager. They were in Leicester's Goldsmith Music Library - possibly a relic of the LSSO days, who knows. Obviously I have the Gothic too, and the Fantastic Variations, but that's it.

Mouth watering disgustingly, btw - no 3 and no 7? Two I've always been (particularly) dying to see!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Musica Viva's 8 10 and 21 were the ones I saw too, as a teenager. They were in Leicester's Goldsmith Music Library - possibly a relic of the LSSO days, who knows. Obviously I have the Gothic too, and the Fantastic Variations, but that's it.

Mouth watering disgustingly, btw - no 3 and no 7? Two I've always been (particularly) dying to see!

Not to pile it on - add the Violin Concerto. I had forgotten it... The problem is that the scores of 3, 7, 11 and VC are physically quite large. I don't have a scanner, apart from the fact that it would be rather time-consuming. Those three study scores, otoh, would be more manageable.

I'll have a think.

[lukeottevanger]

Not to pile it on - add the Violin Concerto.

Just make sure you don't leave it at the train station....

[lukeottevanger]

...you could leave it on a train, of course....but only if it's in an envelope with my name on it and the train is coming to my house. Add the other scores whilst you're at it....

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just make sure you don't leave it at the train station....

I won't. And if I do, I'll simply write a third VC...

[(poco) Sforzando]

...which isn't to say they can't be used as keys e.g. the D flat minor which Janacek used very commonly, or the climax in E sharp major in Brian's 8th Symphony; they just require the extra flats or sharps to be added into the music, not forming part of the key signature.. And of course chords spelt in this way are very common - one of the most famous chords in music is made up of an F flat major chord under a dominant seventh chord on E flat (think thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud thud .....)

Absolutely true. My point simply concerned the key signatures. And I wasn't talking about individual chords per se, as with your thud thud thud thud thud (abridged) example.

Sfz,
whose Igor is good, but who pretends to no Brianic knowledge (nor cares)

[johnQpublic]

There's a place in a Beethoven string quartet...can't remember which one nor which movement, but he implies the key of F-flat major with the melody slowly stepping down from A-flat to C-flat... & then stopping so that the needed and expected B-double flat to confirm such a foreign...shall I say forbidden key?...is not to be seen or heard. What a sly guy. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Sfz,
whose Igor is good, but who pretends to no Brianic knowledge (nor cares)

Shame on you!

[greg]

Db minor (and its relative major Fb) does not exist as a key signature.

well, that's why i avoid it 

Yeah, you do - especially to play an instrument very well, you really do NEED a teacher.

oh, no you don't, not always, not everyone 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Shame on you!

I can't even get through the Gothic without wanting to turn the noisy, ugly thing off; how am I supposed to get through 31 others? 

[(poco) Sforzando]

oh, no you don't, not always, not everyone 

Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.

[Ephemerid]

Yeah, you do - especially to play an instrument very well, you really do NEED a teacher.

Yeah, everyone. You find me one example of a professional pianist, violinist, cellist, what have you, who's self-taught, and I'll give you - my copy of the 2-CD set of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony! When you're self-taught, you pick up bad habits you can't correct, you don't learn proper technique, and you never learn more than you know already. It's a bad idea.

If we're talking classical music here, yes, definitely.  Rock, or jazz or whatever, no (and in fact those "bad habits" sometimes work to one's advantage in those cases-- like Jimi Hendrix for example)-- but the approach of classical is different from rock, jazz, etc.