Popular Music

[orbital]

Probably around 200 or so. Mostly Rock, Hard Rock, Alternative and quite a bit of Brazilian music CD's. My wife is very much  into Led Zeppelin and the like so we have quite a bit of CD's of that sort.  I was very big in to Brazilian (both eclectic and modern) music for a while so there is some kind of collection in that department that I still love to listen to.

One of my favorite weekend moments is having breakfast with Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto playing in the background  0:)

[71 dB]

I get the point now. It takes me a while sometimes. I still don't like it though. It's probably separate because it's catalogued differently: composer rather than artist.

Who likes it? Popular music is in fact a small thing, it just sells "millions of copies" and is played everywhere 15 times a day for three months.

You are right, different system of cataloging is the reason. Amazon uses the simplest possible system.

[Maciek]

On a side note I'd just like to point out that many 20th century "classical" composers did compose "popular" music from time to time (usually for the money ), and many still do that today. In Poland, Witold Lutoslawski is a very notable example (numerous songs written under the pseudonym Derwid). But there are others - Krzysztof Knittel, one of the most uncompromising avantgarde composers happens to be the author of a true hit (Koncert jesienny as sung by Magda Umer). The recently deceased Andrzej Kurylewicz was not only a contemporary "classical" composer (including works for tape) but one of Poland's foremost jazz musicians, and author of numerous songs. Lucjan Marian Kaszycki and Edward Pałłasz are 2 more names that come to mind (I think Edward Sielicki has written some popular music too but may be misremembering...). And I'm sure there are many more that I forgot or don't know about. I'm not even going to start the subject of film and theatre music (even Penderecki wrote soundtracks!).

[Grazioso]

On a side note I'd just like to point out that many 20th century "classical" composers did compose "popular" music from time to time (usually for the money ), and many still do that today. In Poland, Witold Lutoslawski is a very notable example (numerous songs written under the pseudonym Derwid). But there are others - Krzysztof Knittel, one of the most uncompromising avantgarde composers happens to be the author of a true hit (Koncert jesienny as sung by Magda Umer). The recently deceased Andrzej Kurylewicz was not only a contemporary "classical" composer (including works for tape) but one of Poland's foremost jazz musicians, and author of numerous songs. Lucjan Marian Kaszycki and Edward Pałłasz are 2 more names that come to mind (I think Edward Sielicki has written some popular music too but may be misremembering...). And I'm sure there are many more that I forgot or don't know about. I'm not even going to start the subject of film and theatre music (even Penderecki wrote soundtracks!).

Dave Brubeck might be best known for his jazz, but he's a classical composer, too, and studied with Milhaud.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Don, you should hear the Grateful Dead's twin drummers in concert. A feature of nearly every show in the second set was a ten to twenty minute segment called "Drums" where they showed their amazing skills, their music influenced by jazz, classical and "world" drumming. Drums would segue into "Space" when the other members of the Dead returned to the stage. While the drummers took a break the band would play some incredibly complex improvisations influenced by Phil Lesh's classical background (he once had a chance to study with Berio in Italy...Berio was highly impressed by his compositional skills...but Phil chose the Dead instead).

Sarge

Sounds incredible, Sarge!

What a dazzling show they must have put on.

Makes me wish I'd caught a Dead show or two.

How about a DVD? Can you rec one, Sarge?

[greg]

Under 50 for me.
I have albums by Joe Satriani, Yngwie Malmsteen (my 2 favorites, of course), Vinnie Moore, Jeff Beck, Michael Angelo Batio, Theodore Ziras, Dream Theater- those are all guitarists, and none of them are totally mainstream. Some are well-known but get no radio time, others are pretty obscure in comparison. My dad has a nice collection, too, which I listen to sometimes, which includes Hendrix, Soundgarden, and this excellent guitarist named Dave Atherton who is very overlooked. I also have a video game sountrack, though I don't think that counts.

[sonic1]

I am not sure how we are defining "popular" music. (sorry I am too lazy to sift through the thread) But I have a lot of Rock records, as well as a lot of other things. If you think Rock and other simpler forms of music has no influence on music as a whole, and on composers, you are a fool.

Case in point: the Beatles.

There is a lot that happens in the most simple music. There seems often around here to be this assumption that popular music lacks interesting music developments and innovations, and that composed music is always more complex than popular music. Perhaps if all you listen to is the radio, you might believe this, though even a quick surf through radio stations would prove this false too. And now-a-days with internet radio, satelite radio, etc. you have no excuse in being ignorant of the complex "popular" music  that is out there.

Careful with music snobbery. It can bite you on the arse.

BTW, I own thousands of albums and CDs that would probably fit under the "popular" category. Though Classical and Jazz music outweighs Rock pretty heavily.

[squeemu]

I have about 150 to 180 cds ranging from death metal to indie rock to everything in between. Some of it I still really enjoy, but a lot of it is from my college years.

[Steve]

I am not sure how we are defining "popular" music. (sorry I am too lazy to sift through the thread) But I have a lot of Rock records, as well as a lot of other things. If you think Rock and other simpler forms of music has no influence on music as a whole, and on composers, you are a fool.

Case in point: the Beatles.

There is a lot that happens in the most simple music. There seems often around here to be this assumption that popular music lacks interesting music developments and innovations, and that composed music is always more complex than popular music. Perhaps if all you listen to is the radio, you might believe this, though even a quick surf through radio stations would prove this false too. And now-a-days with internet radio, satelite radio, etc. you have no excuse in being ignorant of the complex "popular" music  that is out there.

Careful with music snobbery. It can bite you on the arse.

BTW, I own thousands of albums and CDs that would probably fit under the "popular" category. Though Classical and Jazz music outweighs Rock pretty heavily.

I never implied that classical music escaped any influence of the popular artists in my original post. However I dont see how popular music was any more of an influence than other aspects of culture - Art, Literature... Take for example, Mahler's powerful Das Lied von der Erde, which was directly influened by his reading of an ancient Chinese book of poetry. I would never deny the influence of culture upon the composers of classical music, in fact if that claim had any bit of validity, how could we refer to composers as voices of their respective generations?

However, it is possible to overstate the influence of any single artist upon the classical repotoire. I don't really believe the Beatles had any discernable impact on Glass for example. It is rather the culture in which these works are created which collectively provide influence to the composers of classical works.

As to your comment about the complexity of popular music- I will not disagree here either. All I can say, is that I have never been seriously intellectually aroused by any piece of popular music. I will not deny its complexity, I just dont find it to be , (IMO), to be worthy of study, in the same way that I do with classical. That of course is reflected in the number of popular recordings that I own (less than 10). I know many here, and obviously many composers do, and I would never debate the influence of that music on their works, but I simply am not stimulated in any shape or form by it.

It may have complexity, but it lacks the sort of infinite imaintative power of classical music, as far as I'm concerned. You, I'm sure will instantly disagree. That, however, is a statement of taste, and not one of fact.

The only statement of fact that I can offer, is to the complexity of some popular music. Obviously I will not contest you there.

[sonic1]

Personally, classical music is wonderful, but sometimes takes itself too seriously. Humor is rare in music and when it DOES occur, it is too self aware, at best. I listen to a lot of indie garage rock which uses the same three or four chords, uses the same licks used by chuck berry and the like, yet somehow it satisfies a very important need to shake that self-important bullshit which is really the bane of western civilization-historically at least.

And some of it I would consider smarter than many composers' works.

I see you are giving popular music no more importance than other aspects of culture. I think this is a gross judgment, lacking the infiltration of all those melody lines which are everywhere.

Usually it takes me some work to remember melodic lines from a classical piece of music. But there is a lot of popular music, which I don't even like, that is embedded in my memory. And I know that when I write music, it comes out. The influence is there very strongly, musically (not just culturally as you imply).

Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle might compel you to write an opera. But it won't suggest melodic bits. Popular music almost certainly does.

And all the great composers give hommage to their country's or peoples' popular music. Now-a-days we (educated music lovers, composers, whatever) like to think ourselves above that. I think it is dishonest though.

[Steve]

Personally, classical music is wonderful, but sometimes takes itself too seriously. Humor is rare in music and when it DOES occur, it is too self aware, at best. I listen to a lot of indie garage rock which uses the same three or four chords, uses the same licks used by chuck berry and the like, yet somehow it satisfies a very important need to shake that self-important bullshit which is really the bane of western civilization-historically at least.

And some of it I would consider smarter than many composers' works.

I see you are giving popular music no more importance than other aspects of culture. I think this is a gross judgment, lacking the infiltration of all those melody lines which are everywhere.

Usually it takes me some work to remember melodic lines from a classical piece of music. But there is a lot of popular music, which I don't even like, that is embedded in my memory. And I know that when I write music, it comes out. The influence is there very strongly, musically (not just culturally as you imply).

Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle might compel you to write an opera. But it won't suggest melodic bits. Popular music almost certainly does.

And all the great composers give hommage to their country's or peoples' popular music. Now-a-days we (educated music lovers, composers, whatever) like to think ourselves above that. I think it is dishonest though.

As for assigning degrees of influence to different elements of culture, it is impossible to avoid a over-generalization. Obviously, the motivations/inspirations for composers vary, and so does the degree of that influence. I do agree that many composers have been inspired by different forms of popular music-but I don't believe that it is nessecarily a greater influence than other elements of an artist's culture. Perhaps not Vonnegut, but imagine how the readings Tennyson might inspire great romantic ballads with sweeping nationalistic influence. Or how Goethe's Poem, is translated so magnificently into Schubert's Composition; the list is endless. Elements of culture- be they literature, or popular music can and provide inspiration for composers. The melodies of popular music aren't simply transposed into orchestral music, nor are the words poets fused into symphonic poems. Together they form a well of culture that the composer draws from, for direction and inspiration.

As for the influence being non-musical, I did not imply such; its just that generally direct musical influence for composers comes from other composers, and not popular musicicans. The reason being that they writing for the symphony, or solo piano, or violin, and not for popular instruments. Just as a poet's work more closely testifies to the another poet, a classical composers musical inspiration generally comes from the repotoire of the instrument/ensemble that he is scoring.

Classical Music and popular music are two distinct entities with many bonds between them, but it is a bond of no greater influence than that of the written word or of art, or perhaps of nature. Assigning degrees of influence just isn't possible. Composers look everwhere for inspiration, but when it comes to understanding how to score a particular instrument, they have to engage the composers of the past, to come to an understanding of that instrument.

[Harry]

Both last posts Steve are very well written.

[71 dB]

Personally, classical music is wonderful, but sometimes takes itself too seriously. Humor is rare in music and when it DOES occur, it is too self aware, at best.

Carl Nielsen gives you plenty of humour in the form of classical music! 

[sonic1]

As for assigning degrees of influence to different elements of culture, it is impossible to avoid a over-generalization. Obviously, the motivations/inspirations for composers vary, and so does the degree of that influence. I do agree that many composers have been inspired by different forms of popular music-but I don't believe that it is nessecarily a greater influence than other elements of an artist's culture. Perhaps not Vonnegut, but imagine how the readings Tennyson might inspire great romantic ballads with sweeping nationalistic influence. Or how Goethe's Poem, is translated so magnificently into Schubert's Composition; the list is endless. Elements of culture- be they literature, or popular music can and provide inspiration for composers. The melodies of popular music aren't simply transposed into orchestral music, nor are the words poets fused into symphonic poems. Together they form a well of culture that the composer draws from, for direction and inspiration.

As for the influence being non-musical, I did not imply such; its just that generally direct musical influence for composers comes from other composers, and not popular musicicans. The reason being that they writing for the symphony, or solo piano, or violin, and not for popular instruments. Just as a poet's work more closely testifies to the another poet, a classical composers musical inspiration generally comes from the repotoire of the instrument/ensemble that he is scoring.

Classical Music and popular music are two distinct entities with many bonds between them, but it is a bond of no greater influence than that of the written word or of art, or perhaps of nature. Assigning degrees of influence just isn't possible. Composers look everwhere for inspiration, but when it comes to understanding how to score a particular instrument, they have to engage the composers of the past, to come to an understanding of that instrument.

I think we are talking about different things here. If I get what you are saying, you are speaking more abstractly. I am speaking more literally. Ever since at LEAST the romantic period popular hymns and songs (the melodies) were quite literally translated into music. In the modern era this is even more true. I think you greatly underestimate the influence of popular music, especially in the modern era, if you overlook that.

Yes, it is true they also derive inspiration from literature and art, but INSPIRATION is a wholly different thing than INFLUENCE. Want an example? How about Bartok's influence from his home country's music? How about Ives and his influence from american folk musics?

All you need to do to get an understanding of this is to see how composers from various regions of the world have a distinct flavor (not always). Even during the greatest time of globalism, there is still a distinct national sound from many composers. Takemitsu sounds totally Japanese (because he derives influence from japanese folk musics), and all those Hungarians always have that distinct hungarian sound (Ligeti). The spanish composers have been heavily influenced by music. Albeniz admits totally being influenced by honky-tonk bar music (which he played as a kid).

This is a much closer bond than you are suggesting. Unless of course you are talking about Bach, and composers of the earlier period. Then, maybe it is true, that composers did not get influenced by popular music. Though I find it hard to really believe, I don't know enough about the popular music of the time to suggest otherwise.

Jazz is a popular music, and it has infiltrated classical music wholesale. Jazz brought many many many innovations to music that was borrowed (stolen), particularly the rhythms as they occur in the melodies.

[Steve]

Yes, it is true they also derive inspiration from literature and art, but INSPIRATION is a wholly different thing than INFLUENCE. Want an example? How about Bartok's influence from his home country's music? How about Ives and his influence from american folk musics?

Yes, inspiration is a different concept than influence, but I did not intend to make the distinction here. I contend that literature influenced composers in the same way that popular musicians did. Take, for example, the Bible. Consider the sheer number of sacred compositions created from close readings of it. Do you think we would have Mozart's Requiem in D, if there were no Bible? Many of its passages, have clearly influenced the writing of music. It's not coincidence that the period in musical history that we term romantic, also happens to be the name given to that time in Art History and Literature.

Composers were influenced by artists, authors, and yes, popular musicians. You say that many popular lines were transposed into classical compositions, and that is true. At the same time musicans have turned to great texts for the same sort of musical ammo. Instead of validating the link between popular music and classical, I would rather speak to the entire cutural influence upon composers. Seperating elements of culture according to degree of influence doesn't seem to be feasible. You might say that German anthems sound similar to certain German classical composition, but they also recreate for us images that conjure up German Art and Literature. While it is tempting to allow a greater influence to popular musicians because their medium is more similar to the composer's, I won't. While a composer might borrow a melody from a popular piece of music, it is not directly incorperated into his piece, the way it might be into another popular song. They are different genres of music.

When I see Beethoven's Eroica, I see immediately, other classical composers, and then with effort, the contributions of artists, authours, and sometimes other popular musicians. Its a matter of cultural influence.

[sonic1]

To me there is a distinctive difference between the abstract influence of art and culture, and the literal influence popular music has on classical music. You are going to great efforts to amputate popular music from "serious" music, and if this works for you, great. But it seems a little bit of a stretch to me. Music is music. Art and literature are not music.

[Steve]

To me there is a distinctive difference between the abstract influence of art and culture, and the literal influence popular music has on classical music. You are going to great efforts to amputate popular music from "serious" music, and if this works for you, great. But it seems a little bit of a stretch to me. Music is music. Art and literature are not music.

I am not trying to sever the links between the two realms of music - just to clarify that they are two seperate entities with many links and ties. I don't see how Beethoven's Wellington's Victory was based on some abstract influence of the historical event; it was created in response to that historic battle. The influences of popular musicians on classical composers no more tangeble and literal than other cultural artisans.

The greatest literal influence of course comes from other composers. Here musical structure, artistic stylings, and even entire works themselves are borrowed and incorperated, often in the form of a homage to another. Beethoven's admiration of Mozart or Handel, for example. After that other areas of culture can have an impact, but as they are different mediums, the implact can never be as distinctive of another composer. A composer cannot, in my opinion, write successfully without engaging the repotoire and the composers who created it. As for how popular influences; those are also needed, but in a far less tangeable sense.

[sonic1]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But something about how you use your logic is not sitting well with me, and not convincing me. I cannot see from all you said why popular music is not hugely influential, and being the same art more important to composers, WHETHER THEY PAY ATTENTION TO IT OR NOT. But I am out of gas, or rather I have no time left to fight this one out. Maybe I will come back to this tomorrow.

j

[Steve]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But something about how you use your logic is not sitting well with me, and not convincing me. I cannot see from all you said why popular music is not hugely influential, and being the same art more important to composers, WHETHER THEY PAY ATTENTION TO IT OR NOT. But I am out of gas, or rather I have no time left to fight this one out. Maybe I will come back to this tomorrow.

j

Well, I suppose this was a reaction to you comment about the sort of snobbery among people who seperate the two worlds of music. See, I feel as though I can experience and understand the music in my collection without being familiar with much popular music. When I read of a connection between, perhaps a folk song and a tone poem, I look into the connection. This is very much the way I go about researching other influences on the music I so regularily enjoy.

Coming across Eroica, one cannot help from wanting to learn more of the man who inspiried Beethoven to write it. Hence, whether it be researching literature or popular music which inspired a piece of classical music, I consider that as the sort of external knowledge that a method actor might seek when reaching a role. Interesting side information, but nothing critical to my musical appreciation. For that, I seek out the composers other repotiore influences. For Schumann, I might look into his relationship with Brahms, or his later influence on later composers.

That knowledge is critical to my understanding of the work, musically. I just want to make it clear, that I do not deny the influence of popular music on classical composers, but I don't find that being aware of those influeces is anymore helpful to my understanding of the piece as a composition than perhaps being aware of the powerful connection between Clara Schumann and Brahms.

[sonic1]

Well, I suppose this was a reaction to you comment about the sort of snobbery among people who seperate the two worlds of music. See, I feel as though I can experience and understand the music in my collection without being familiar with much popular music. When I read of a connection between, perhaps a folk song and a tone poem, I look into the connection. This is very much the way I go about researching other influences on the music I so regularily enjoy.

Coming across Eroica, one cannot help from wanting to learn more of the man who inspiried Beethoven to write it. Hence, whether it be researching literature or popular music which inspired a piece of classical music, I consider that as the sort of external knowledge that a method actor might seek when reaching a role. Interesting side information, but nothing critical to my musical appreciation. For that, I seek out the composers other repotiore influences. For Schumann, I might look into his relationship with Brahms, or his later influence on later composers.

That knowledge is critical to my understanding of the work, musically. I just want to make it clear, that I do not deny the influence of popular music on classical composers, but I don't find that being aware of those influeces is anymore helpful to my understanding of the piece as a composition than perhaps being aware of the powerful connection between Clara Schumann and Brahms.

I guess I can respect this perspective.

From my perspective however, as a person who was certainly shaped by popular music (actually I cringe using such a term) I see a lot more of the influence and crossovers than maybe someone who would need to do a lot of research because of their lack of familiarity. I grew up listening to a lot A LOT of jazz, and lots of rock as well, with a focus on some of the less common sub-genres (hardly "popular" music). I have listened to a wide range of music in general and don't have a hierarchal placement for each genre necessarily. I know a lot of work goes into classical music, and a lot of genius. But then again, I have heard incredibly talented jazz musicians who can compose on a moments notice stuff that someone sitting down at a desk couldn't do over the course of a week.

I digress, but I get a little bitchy when people hold classical music as some sort of pinnacle of genius. It really is not necessarily true. Especially considering jazz, especially considering where jazz came from (a very undervalued, dehumanized class of people during a terrible time in our history, somehow creating the most interesting music of the 20th century by far).

And I think jazz DID have a major impact on composers. And there is a lot of crossover too, lots of composers who got into jazz, and vice versa. Leonard Bernstein was a big jazz fan, and at that he loved the avant-guard jazz (he was one of the first to champion Ornette Coleman).

You can hear a major jazz influence in Bernstein's own music.

I could go on, but I need to go to bed, cause I have 18 miles to run at 5 in the morning...