Is there any relationship at all

[mar208]

between level of education and the love of classical music? This is a sensitive question for some but it need not be. And it can be said that those with higher levels of education have been EXPOSED to classical music more, and that is the reason they like it. But I think a person can complete college and graduate school and still not have any exposure to classical music, or at least no more than the person who left high school before graduation. This question has occurred to me more than once in the past and I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on it. The question is actually twofold: Is there any relation at all? and if so, why? Why would having more education predispose one to like classical music more than, say, a tradesman or manual laborer. They all have equal access to radio stations. The educated person did not acquire their liking of classical music by talking about it with others. So this is a serious question and believe me, it is not meant to plt uneducated vs educated, nor is it an idle speculation. It is a very interesting topic. So the arguments that educated people have more exposure to classical music or that they hear it more often or that they talk about it with others etc all those arguments seem to fall by the wayside and I am no nearer understanding this relationship (because I do think one exists) than I was before considering all these varied arguments. If the moderator feels that this is too controversial a topic, I will understand its deletion from the forum, but I have wondered about this for years. It is a little different with, say, English literature, because of exposure in college. E.g. it is highly unlikely that on a loading dock somewhere, there will be a discussion of Beowulf. This is neither good nor bad; it is just that it is highly unlikely, and that is because of lack of exposure. But educated people are no more exposed to classical music than uneducated. (?) So what does account for the perception that it is mostly educated people who like classical music? Where did this liking of classical music come from and why is it not seen nearly so often in the ranks of people who, say, are high school graduates?

[mar208]

With education comes (hopefully) a broadening of horizons, and that may be the simple answer to all of it. Maybe there is no more to it. But broadening one's horizons does not necessarily include getting to like classical music.

[Gustav]

well, there might be a positive correlation, but nothing definitive. Take my father for instance, he was simpy not into music, so getting an advanced degree from an university doesn't really mean he is should listen to classical music. There are famous examples about famous composers who weren't well educated too, take Bruckner for instance, i doubt that he was that well educated (besides music of course). So, it's hard to say.

[Josquin des Prez]

nd it can be said that those with higher levels of education

Is there such a thing in this day and age?

[mar208]

Thanks. Do you think this topic is offensive? There is something about it that seems slightly offensive to me, but I am not sure why, and I am the one who began it. And I wondered how many have ever thought about this before and wondered about any correlation?

[mar208]

Good point, as to "higher levels of education" these days. But let's just leave school as such out of it and ask only about education, by whatever means, self, without schools, etc.

[Mark]

If there is a conspiracy that results in 'the educated' being exposed to (and therefore, presumably, liking) classical music more than 'the uneducated', then I've somehow slipped through the conspirator's sifting process.

In brief, my background: poor, white working class from the rough suburbs of a British seaside town; left school at 16 with no real qualifications to speak of; spent a decade working on (would you believe it?) a loading dock; blagged my way into advertising nine years ago, and now living in a well-to-do commuter village. So I have, I think, joined the lower ranks of Britain's white middle class. Yet long before my rags to not-quite-riches journey began, I started exposing myself to classical music, and my tastes developed slowly over a 15-year period.

My lack of erudition embarrasses me not a jot. This is possibly because I work as a writer, hence others assume I went to university (in fact, I've often been asked which one I attended - usually, by those who went themselves). I'm not especially well read on any subject, I'm certainly not 'academic' (and thank God for that, as I've met some disagreeable academics over the years; some charming and good-humoured ones, too, it's true), and I definitely don't consider that a lot of book learning necessarily predisposes anyone to anything ... except, perhaps, a little intellectual arrogance in the company of those less learned (see: the aforementioned academics).

If one enjoys an art form, then surely, it is for its own sake - or else, that 'enjoyment' is little more than a pretence. I'd rather hear a plumber whistling a piece of popular classical music heard on Classic FM (yes, even Nessun Dorma), than I would listen to a studied chap banging on at length about an opera for which he cared little but about which he knew a lot because the dictates of his social set demand such knowledge. Let the music speak for itself, and let learning be only an enhancement to the music, not the reason for liking it.

[not edward]

Nope.

Many of the most discerning listeners I've been lucky enough to meet have been thoroughly working-class.

Taste and discrimination will out, regardless of a person's background, if you give them enough time and experience.

[mar208]

I agree with both of you. I am a high school dropout. But I think that there is more to this, somehow.

[Mark]

But I think that there is more to this, somehow.

Perhaps you should elaborate further.

And please, don't saddle yourself with a lame label such as 'dropout'. History is littered with those who 'dropped out' of formal education but went on to achieve successes great and small. Have more self-respect.

[mar208]

Mark, that is what I am getting at. You would not usually hear a plumber whistling a classical music piece. And my question is, Why not? He is just as exposed to classical music as anyone else. What accounts for this disparity in musical tastes, leaving education aside, although I don't think we can.....what accounts for the idea that for every plumber who whistles Mozart, there are ten thousand who do not and will not? There is nothing about the plumber his or her self. So what is it? A lack of exposure? No. He or she has a radio. Talking about it with others? No. This still leaves me wondering.

[Gustav]

Mark, that is what I am getting at. You would not usually hear a plumber whistling a classical music piece. And my question is, Why not? He is just as exposed to classical music as anyone else. What accounts for this disparity in musical tastes, leaving education aside, although I don't think we can.....what accounts for the idea that for every plumber who whistles Mozart, there are ten thousand who do not and will not? There is nothing about the plumber his or her self. So what is it? A lack of exposure? No. He or she has a radio. Talking about it with others? No. This still leaves me wondering.

Maybe he is too busy working all the time, to make ends meet and don't have the amount of leisure time that some people do.

[Ephemerid]

between level of education and the love of classical music?

Perhaps in some general sense?-- but I tend to think otherwise.  I think simple EXPOSURE to classical music is far more important than the level of education (I've known people very educated who had no liking or knowledge of classical music at all).  I know that surely I'm not the only person here who came to classical music simply on my own as a teenager (and a rather low GPA) on my own.  I just took to it-- I was HOOKED early on.  I was very fortunate to have heard some bits of classical music without genuine interest when I was younger-- which certainly didn't hinge on my level of education!  And I come from a lower-middle class family, FWIW.

Many people have never really HEARD any classical music, aside from the occasional commerical or soundtrack or stereotypes in movies-- they've not been exposeed to it.  And classical music is typically viewed as "stuffy" music or music for rich snobs, another stereotype.  As a teenager I got picked on a lot for listening to classical music, but I just simply had to learn to not give a damn about what they thought of me (I've never been one to keep up with what is "trendy" and what isn't LOL).  

Classical music often demands more attention in terms of quality (doesn't always make for good background music), and demands more in terms of quantity (not a lot of 3:30 minute pop songs here!)-- that doesn't fit in with the world of the sound byte-- that takes patience & a desire to expand one's horizons.  There's more DIS-incentives for people to listen to classical music and on the surface, very little reward or exposure to it.

I think exposure matters more than education (and HOW one is exposed), and at least from what i've encountered, exposure and education are hardly synonymous.  --in fact, I have been rather disappointed with those encounters with "educated" people (and "educated" is definitely not that same as "intelligent"-- in this day and age, "education" seems to be nothing more than just "training" in a very specialised field).

I think if a lot of people were more exposed to what classical music has to offer, to hell with all the stereotypes, people of all levels of education would be more likely to enjoy it.  Over the years I have always tried expose people to classical music that really didn't know much about it that I thought there might be a glimmer of interest-- often with a degree of success (I'm not saying they're buying up CDs of Schoenberg of course), with some going on to purchase their own CDs of classical music new to them.

Exposure plus DESIRE is what really drives the potential listener.  Education might be an extra, but I certainly don't think it *hinges* on it.  I think the PERCEPTION that educated people tend to listen to classical music is just a stereotype.  its also off-putting-- when I have opened people's ears up to classical music, I often have to re-assure them that "you don't have to be educated to listen to this"-- its like having to break though this cultural programming.  

Just my $0.02...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Thanks. Do you think this topic is offensive? There is something about it that seems slightly offensive to me, but I am not sure why, and I am the one who began it. And I wondered how many have ever thought about this before and wondered about any correlation?

Good heavens, if you think this is offensive, you ain't seen nothing here yet. And I have had many discussions on loading docks about Beowulf. (Not really, but I don't frequent loading docks much these days.)

I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I suppose one way of finding it out is to investigate the results of surveys put out by leading orchestras, where they ask the education level of subscribers and other attendees. Or you could construct your own little poll here, asking people to state their own educational level. But I think you will find high school graduates, people with undergraduate degrees, and some with post-graduate work. Maybe a more productive question would be to our group: how do you correlate your education with your interest in music? or are there factors you think contributed as much or more?

[Mark]

You underestimate the power of marketing, my friend.

Classical music has long been packaged and sold in a way that appeals more to those born to money and influence (or those with the ability to acquire either or both), rather than to the 'masses'. For them, there is pop music, TV dinners, crap gameshows, beer, smoking, violent films and dog racing. I exaggerate, of course, but I hail from a working-class background, so I do, perhaps, have a better perspective on this than many.

You see, the kind of people I was brought up with were easily convinced that stealing or claiming benefits was their lot in life. No one came along and tried to sell them anything more aspiring - and I'm not certain that education was the only barrier. Folk tend to stick with what they know. And many are quite comfortable with that arrangement. But some aren't - and I was one of those. So they move on, try new things, learn a little, even if not academically. And eventually, they find themselves somewhere new, somewhere ... and I hate this word, but it's the one that gets used ... 'better'. Do we not speak of 'bettering' ourselves? Some can and do. Some can but don't. Many could but won't (a sense of 'tribal belonging' is as powerful a force as that of marketing, believe me); and some just can't. All this said, I see it that education has only a small part to play in determining who 'rises', and who stays put.

[mar208]

I think there is more to it, and, regarding an earlier post, the term "high school dropout" denotes no less self-respect than the description "failed to complete high school".  The former is a kind of buzz word these days and the latter is just a description. But anyway, maybe there is nothing to this at all and perhaps there is no correlation at all between liking classical music and education, be it formal or informal or self-taught or not.  But Mark, I think you are right. People break out of what they are doing, and that may be the key to it all. Education may play a part but it is this determination to break out and away and go off in a different direction that makes the most sense.

[mar208]

I think it is time for another topic. Will start one now

[Ephemerid]

Folk tend to stick with what they know. And many are quite comfortable with that arrangement. But some aren't - and I was one of those. So they move on, try new things, learn a little, even if not academically. And eventually, they find themselves somewhere new, somewhere ... and I hate this word, but it's the one that gets used ... 'better'. Do we not speak of 'bettering' ourselves? Some can and do. Some can but don't. Many could but won't (a sense of 'tribal belonging' is as powerful a force as that of marketing, believe me); and some just can't. All this said, I see it that education has only a small part to play in determining who 'rises', and who stays put.

Very well, put, Mark.

[Mark]

It is human to desire. Once you desire, you begin to aspire. From there, you can go as far as your abilities, inherent or learned, can take you. And of course, you can always acquire new abilities - like an ability to enjoy and appreciate classical music.

[Mark]

Very well, put, Mark.

Some days I am lucid, Josh. Others, I'm an arse.