Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Why, the Sixth of course.  Like I said in the thread dedicated to it, it's about as close as a symphony can get to absolute perfection.

The only way for it to reach perfection is if the middle movements are the other way around 

[Mirror Image]

I would rank Lenny's SONY M3 as one of his finest recordings and a reference recording if there is one on this work. THe DG version is still excellent but really doesn't improve upon the SONY effort, which unlike some in the set is recorded in excellent analog sound. The final Adagio ebbs and flows like a single phrase, a remarkable achievement.

THe Chailly is very fine also. I just think it is a bit heavy and dark and times and misses some of the fairytale nature of this work. But it does not take away from this excellent recording much. A darkhorse recommendation is Litton/Dallas fantastically played and recorded.

I'll definitely give Bernstein's first go-around with the 3rd another listen, but, as I mentioned previously, I don't think I can come away from it with the same kind of enthusiasm as I had for his DG remake. There is something truly special about his DG recording and the fact of the matter is that right now I can't get it out of my mind.

[Jay F]

I'll definitely give Bernstein's first go-around with the 3rd another listen, but, as I mentioned previously, I don't think I can come away from it with the same kind of enthusiasm as I had for his DG remake. There is something truly special about his DG recording and the fact of the matter is that right now I can't get it out of my mind.

I feel the same way, except the opposite. I love Bernstein's CBS M3, while the DG version sounds off somehow. I hardly ever play it. Imprint concept at work, I suppose. It was my first M3. I like some others, though: Abbado/Vienna, Tilson-Thomas, Esa-Pekka Salonen. Just not Bernstein's DG version.

[GioCar]

I appreciate your recommendations, GioCar. I'm just being honest. By the way, I now recall Chailly's 3rd and actually wrote a simpleton review of it on Amazon. I recall being very impressed with it at the time.

Here's my review of Chailly's 3rd (written in '09):

Riccardo Chailly's Mahler cycle is one of the best recorded and performed I've heard (and I own them all). I'm reviewing this performance of Mahler's third symphony, because I think it stands as one of the great achievements of Chailly's cycle. The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra play amazingly well here. After hearing this performance, I was fully convinced of the beauty this symphony had to offer.

Chailly is up against some very stiff competition in this symphony: Bertini, Abbado, Bernstein, Tennstedt, Salonen (one of two Mahler recordings he made, the other being "Symphony No. 4"), Haitink (his newer CSO recording is fantastic), Rattle, Horenstein, Mehta, Kubelik, and Boulez. All of these recordings offer great performances, but it is Chailly's that pulls ahead. I think there are three elements that sets this performance apart from the others: the sheer intensity, emotional content, and the pure virtuosity of the RCO.

The first movement "Kräftig - Entschieden," which lasts around 34 minutes is one of the best I've heard from any conductor or orchestra. Chailly has an unbelievable ear for the structure of this long movement. The last minute of this symphony is so intense and just downright exuberant you will think you're speakers are about to explode! The singing from Petra Lang is also first-rate.

Mahler's third isn't recorded as much as his first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth, or ninth, but I think this performance has a lot going for it. I highly recommend Chailly's entire Mahler cycle as the single releases of this cycle are quite expensive. Mahler fans who don't own Chailly's cycle, but aren't sure whether to purchase the box set yet, should try this recording first. If this performance doesn't convince you, then nothing will.

Nice review, John.
I didn't know you belonged to a true Mahlerian family 
What about Horenstein/LSO? What do you think of it?

[GioCar]

I'm not a Mahlerian so forgive my potential ignorance.

One thing that I've noticed listening to the majority of his work, is that there seems to be connections between some of his works, especially symphonies.
Was Mahler doing a Shostakovich/Varese/Zappa thing with continuity?

I find this quite fascinating (it's something I've been doing in my own music for a long time already) 

Well, surely there is a strong connection between his symphonies 1-5 and his early Lieder/Wunderhorn Lieder. Beside that I let someone else more expert than me (Mahlerian?) answering your question.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I feel the same way, except the opposite. I love Bernstein's CBS M3, while the DG version sounds off somehow. I hardly ever play it. Imprint concept at work, I suppose. It was my first M3. I like some others, though: Abbado/Vienna, Tilson-Thomas, Esa-Pekka Salonen. Just not Bernstein's DG version.

I actually listened to the DG Lenny M3 first, before I got to know his earlier CBS version. The earlier effort just feels a bit more spontaneous. It almost seems like the DG remake is trying too hard, as if Lenny is trying to out-do himself which is tall orders even for him. By doing that he misses some of the Wunderhorn nature of the work. Not every passage needs massaging, in the ealier CBS effort he was content to let large sections sort of play themselves yet achieve remarkable results.

[Mahlerian]

I'm not a Mahlerian so forgive my potential ignorance.

One thing that I've noticed listening to the majority of his work, is that there seems to be connections between some of his works, especially symphonies.
Was Mahler doing a Shostakovich/Varese/Zappa thing with continuity?

I find this quite fascinating (it's something I've been doing in my own music for a long time already) 

GioCar is right in pointing out connections between the songs and the symphonies (and there are many of them), but it's also true that there are connections between some of the symphonies as well.  There's a trumpet figure in the Fourth that opens the Fifth, the major-minor motif of the Sixth appears in the first Nachtmusik of the Seventh, a scalar figure at climaxes in both the Seventh and Eighth, and, because of the way the works were composed, there are a good number of connections between the Third and the Fourth.

More obscure, Mahler reworked a passage from Das klagende Lied for his First Symphony, and Das klagende Lied itself drew on the earliest songs that we have by Mahler.

[Mirror Image]

I feel the same way, except the opposite. I love Bernstein's CBS M3, while the DG version sounds off somehow. I hardly ever play it. Imprint concept at work, I suppose. It was my first M3. I like some others, though: Abbado/Vienna, Tilson-Thomas, Esa-Pekka Salonen. Just not Bernstein's DG version.

I don't think any of Bernstein's Mahler performances whether they be on Columbia or DG sound off to me except for maybe the inclusion of the boy soprano in the last movement of the 4th on his DG remake. I was onboard with this originally, but now just find it strange, but the rest of the symphony is stunningly performed.

[Mirror Image]

Nice review, John.
I didn't know you belonged to a true Mahlerian family 
What about Horenstein/LSO? What do you think of it?

The best I can remember the Horenstein is very good indeed. I may need to revisit it at some juncture.

[PerfectWagnerite]

The best I can remember the Horenstein is very good indeed. I may need to revisit it at some juncture.

Is that the UNICORN 3rd? I think it is ok, probably in the bottom 3rd of the ones I have listened to. Nothing really spectacular regarding the playing, interpretation, or recording (actually there are some really weird balances in the 1st movement like the miking shifted during the middle of some sustained notes). I suppose when it first came out there weren't that many stereo M3 so it was the top of the heap but right now it is outclassed by pretty much everything out there. Sorry.

[aukhawk]

That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.

But I agree with this:

I would rank Lenny's SONY M3 as one of his finest recordings and a reference recording if there is one on this work.

Like some others this was my first brush with Mahler. 
My second was a record which is very rarely mentioned these days - Das Klagende Lied conducted by Boulez/LSO

[kishnevi]

GioCar is right in pointing out connections between the songs and the symphonies (and there are many of them), but it's also true that there are connections between some of the symphonies as well.  There's a trumpet figure in the Fourth that opens the Fifth, the major-minor motif of the Sixth appears in the first Nachtmusik of the Seventh, a scalar figure at climaxes in both the Seventh and Eighth, and, because of the way the works were composed, there are a good number of connections between the Third and the Fourth.

More obscure, Mahler reworked a passage from Das klagende Lied for his First Symphony, and Das klagende Lied itself drew on the earliest songs that we have by Mahler.

I've always felt a resemblance in the very last few bars of the Second and Eighth Symphonies...not one being a clone of the other, but siblings.  As if Gustav, writing the closing bars of a massive choral work, recycled the closing bars of his earlier massive choral work.

[PerfectWagnerite]

That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.

Yes that is the word I was looking for "brittle". When you hear it you will know it. Initially I thought it was just this release that screwed up the sound:


but then I bought this and it was the same:




I think if someone is dying to hear the LSO in this work both Solti or M. Tilson Thomas are top-notch and wonderfully recorded.

[Mahlerian]

I've always felt a resemblance in the very last few bars of the Second and Eighth Symphonies...not one being a clone of the other, but siblings.  As if Gustav, writing the closing bars of a massive choral work, recycled the closing bars of his earlier massive choral work.

They are similar, and not just because they're in the same key.  They both have the gongs and the fanfares and such, and even if the thematic material is different, its shape is similar.

[Sergeant Rock]

That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.

Yes that is the word I was looking for "brittle". When you hear it you will know it. Initially I thought it was just this release that screwed up the sound:


but then I bought this and it was the same:



I think if someone is dying to hear the LSO in this work both Solti or M. Tilson Thomas are top-notch and wonderfully recorded.

You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player 

Sarge

[kishnevi]

You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player 

Sarge

I have the Brilliant set.
I agree with PW about the sound, and with Sarge about the performance.

They are similar, and not just because they're in the same key.  They both have the gongs and the fanfares and such, and even if the thematic material is different, its shape is similar.

Thanks! Nice to know my ears work correctly from time to time.

[Karl Henning]

You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player 

Sarge

"What am I even DOING here? I'm a kazoo player, fer gosh sakes ...."

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[PerfectWagnerite]

You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player 

Sarge

No wonder I am having a bit of a deja vu ! It might have been 10 yrs ago? But my opinion regarding Horenstein have not changed. I rather like his Mahler 1st which I think is much better recorded. With his 3rd I wonder in a blind listening test whether it will be as favorable. I can't really think of a BAD recording of this (well maybe SOLTI/CSO...)

HAVEN'T  heard the Solti/LSO in awhile so maybe I will give it another spin when I get a chance. My recollection is that the posthorn solo is rather forward and doesn't have the distant hazy feel you hear in other recordings. It could just be that it is less manipulated than others.

[kishnevi]

No wonder I am having a bit of a deja vu ! It might have been 10 yrs ago? But my opinion regarding Horenstein have not changed. I rather like his Mahler 1st which I think is much better recorded. With his 3rd I wonder in a blind listening test whether it will be as favorable. I can't really think of a BAD recording of this (well maybe SOLTI/CSO...)

HAVEN'T  heard the Solti/LSO in awhile so maybe I will give it another spin when I get a chance. My recollection is that the posthorn solo is rather forward and doesn't have the distant hazy feel you hear in other recordings. It could just be that it is less manipulated than others.

I can give you two bad recordings
Mehta with the Bavarian SRO on Farao
Rattle

Rattle's is the worst by far I have heard (I haven't heard the Solti, to the best of my memory). Mehta is merely bland and sometimes boring. Rattle is at its best boring, usually dreary.  The march episodes sound like a march done on a field of muddy jello....

[PerfectWagnerite]

I can give you two bad recordings
Mehta with the Bavarian SRO on Farao
Rattle

Rattle's is the worst by far I have heard (I haven't heard the Solti, to the best of my memory). Mehta is merely bland and sometimes boring. Rattle is at its best boring, usually dreary.  The march episodes sound like a march done on a field of muddy jello....

Interesting...I don't have too many Rattle recordings but those that I do have are mixed. The Dvorak tone poems are rather good but the Beethoven Symphonies are about as dull as they get (with the Vienna Phil no less).

Regarding SOLTI, my copy of the LSO M2 has a bad edit so the last 20 seconds or so is missing(!) Anyone has that problem or do I just have a bad disc (it is brand new).