Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[André]

The Klemperer and Walter (1959) recordings are indeed remarkable.

Maybe you shoud give the third movement a good listen (or two  ). It is the work's musical pivot, in which the negative (nihilistic) influences try to gain the upper hand, but give way to the lambently beautiful 'moonscape' theme which ends up getting the upper hand in the last movement, bringing the work to its consolatory conclusion.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Finally, I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time today. It was the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony performance. While I thought the opening movement was just incredible, I don't think the other three movements quite lived up to its promise. However, I suspect the problem is with my ears rather than the work itself, and will allow it plenty of time to grow on me, as I've had to do with the great Das Lied von der Erde.

Anyway, I also read and enjoyed the late Lewis Thomas' essay on Mahler's 9th, which I thought did a great job of summing up, in a few short paragraphs, the existential crisis of the late 20th century, which I think Mahler's music (as a whole) tended to foreshadow. Has anyone read it?

Finally, what are our favorite recordings of the work? As I've mentioned, it's new to me and I haven't heard very many. But I have been told great things about the Karajan/BP live recording, the Giulini/Chicago, and several others. I'm personally curious about the Klemperer and Walter recordings. I'm a big fan of Bernstein's Mahler and own his whole set (the first, Sony/Columbia cycle) but think it's worthwhile to branch out and hear other interpretations.

Here are some thoughts on that symphony -- and some favorite recordings:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 1)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2)

...including these. The last movement is Mahler being the closest he ever was to Bruckner. (As, ironically, Bruckner is the closest to Mahler in his (pen?)ultimate movement in HIS 9th.

4. Bernard Haitink, Royal Concertgebouw, Philips/Decca

5. Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic, EMI

6. Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic, DG (studio)

[vers la flamme]

^Thanks for that, I just skimmed the whole thing. Interesting thoughts, especially about Bernstein's (and, to a lesser degree (...?) Barbirolli's) presence in Berlin having informed the famous Karajan recordings. I am actually considering both the Barbirolli and Karajan live (one or the other) to have and explore at a later date. The Barbirolli/Berlin/EMI is affordable for very cheap on Amazon, brand new, while the Karajan is not easy or cheap to find at all, but I'm more curious about that one, having heard so many good things. Going to sample both of them.

To change the subject, I'm listening to that Hampson/Bernstein/Vienna Lieder disc, the Rückert-Lieder. So incredibly lush, with surprisingly phenomenal DG early digital sound. As for Hampson, he has a beautiful voice and sings these great, but I think I just prefer an alto. Bernstein's tempi are slightly weird; his "Um Mitternacht" is very slow, as is my favorite of these Lieder, "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen". Overall I enjoy it and will be spending more time with it along with the rest of the songs on the disc.

[JBS]

My own favorites
Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle
Levine/Munich Philharmonic (on Oehms)
Maderna/BBC Symphony Orch (on the BBC label)
Dudamel (I think it'd both a very good one, and also his only good Mahler recording so far)
Bernstein's DG recording

[aukhawk]

Finally, I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time today. It was the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony performance. While I thought the opening movement was just incredible, I don't think the other three movements quite lived up to its promise. ...

It's fairly common for the 1st movement to be the best part of a symphony.  I would say this not just of Mahler, but of Haydn, Beethoven, and pretty much anyone else in between.
Symphonies are big things, and by their nature to some extent uneven - with strong bits and weaker bits.  Where this is the case, the strength is, more often than not, in the first movement.

Haitink's early '70s recording wth the CO is my favourite, of the few I know.  Levine is good but like so many recordings of the 9th it falls down weakly at 'the bells moment' (about 2/3 of the way through the 1st movement).  This episode only lasts 20 seconds or so out of an 80-minute symphony and so I shouldn't allow it to colour my view of an entire recording - but I do - tubular bells are just so wrong here.

[vers la flamme]

It's fairly common for the 1st movement to be the best part of a symphony.  I would say this not just of Mahler, but of Haydn, Beethoven, and pretty much anyone else in between.
Symphonies are big things, and by their nature to some extent uneven - with strong bits and weaker bits.  Where this is the case, the strength is, more often than not, in the first movement.

Haitink's early '70s recording wth the CO is my favourite, of the few I know.  Levine is good but like so many recordings of the 9th it falls down weakly at 'the bells moment' (about 2/3 of the way through the 1st movement).  This episode only lasts 20 seconds or so out of an 80-minute symphony and so I shouldn't allow it to colour my view of an entire recording - but I do - tubular bells are just so wrong here.

Glad to see I'm not alone in that evaluation, but I still think I just need to spend more time with the music. There is clearly a lot going on, more than one can pick up in one listen.

I'm curious about that Haitink you mention. I really love his Das Lied von der Erde from around the same time, with Janet Baker and James King.

[Jo498]

But in Haydn's time the first movement was almost always the longest and/or most elaborate. This began to change with Beethoven although it's still largely true for most of his work. It's quite different with Bruckner where at least 5 and 8, maybe also the 4th are finale-heavy.
It's not obviously true with Mahler although of his more or less conventionally structured symphonies only 1 and 6 seem clearly dominated by the finales; the 2nd is probably a borderline case, 3 and 4 are "top-heavy". Not sure about 5 and 7. (The 8th and "lied von der erde" are not conventional enough for such an evaluation to make a lot of sense.)

[LKB]

Where to start...

<makes a mighty but ultimately hopeless effort to not ramble a bit>

Regarding recordings of the Ninth, I'd put Karajan's (mostly) live effort in the " indispensable " category. While his earlier effort is also worthy, the uncorrected early clarinet entrance in the scherzo is quite jarring if the work is familiar, as is the phasing of the final bar of the movement. No such faults in the latter effort, which features truly unearthly sound  from the violins in the final movement.

Also, once again I'll tout the Bernstein DVD set from Deutsche Grammophone. While the sound engineering is not always consistent and some of the choices regarding film editing can be distracting, being able to watch Bernstein living in some of the music which meant the most to him is a joy, as much as the WP in particular are for the ears.

The idea has been posited that Mahler is perhaps best appreciated when heard only infrequently. I myself cannot agree, having had his symphonies and song cycles committed to memory for decades, and frequently present between my ears upon awakening. Imho, Mahler voices the full range of the human experience. Anything and everything which happens in our universe, on every scale, is perceptible at various points in his works. For me, " infrequent Mahler " is tantamount to " infrequent living ".

More rambling later...

LKB

[vers la flamme]

Where to start...

<makes a mighty but ultimately hopeless effort to not ramble a bit>

Regarding recordings of the Ninth, I'd put Karajan's (mostly) live effort in the " indispensable " category. While his earlier effort is also worthy, the uncorrected early clarinet entrance in the scherzo is quite jarring if the work is familiar, as is the phasing of the final bar of the movement. No such faults in the latter effort, which features truly unearthly sound  from the violins in the final movement.

Also, once again I'll tout the Bernstein DVD set from Deutsche Grammophone. While the sound engineering is not always consistent and some of the choices regarding film editing can be distracting, being able to watch Bernstein living in some of the music which meant the most to him is a joy, as much as the WP in particular are for the ears.

The idea has been posited that Mahler is perhaps best appreciated when heard only infrequently. I myself cannot agree, having had his symphonies and song cycles committed to memory for decades, and frequently present between my ears upon awakening. Imho, Mahler voices the full range of the human experience. Anything and everything which happens in our universe, on every scale, is perceptible at various points in his works. For me, " infrequent Mahler " is tantamount to " infrequent living ".

More rambling later...

LKB

I was mostly speaking for myself there, and wasn't really trying to posit any kind of universality. For a while, I was listening to Mahler all the time, one symphony per day, minimum, and I could feel the diminishing returns. Where I would once get chills when the choir comes in near the end of the 2nd symphony, I am now less affected. I still appreciate the music of course, but it lacks some of the visceral punch that it carried when I was hearing it infrequently. If you can listen to Mahler every day and enjoy it just as much every time, then by all means, do it. For me, these "peak" experiences are really very valuable, and (again, for me), they can be cheapened with overexposure.

Anyway, that Bernstein DVD set sounds fascinating. As I might have alluded to before, I'm a big fan of Bernstein in Mahler, and I have his earlier Sony Mahler symphonies cycle and really enjoy it. As for the Karajan live 9th, it seems consensus states that it's the best out there. I must get it. I'm also looking at the Barbirolli/Berlin/EMI which is currently very cheap on Amazon.

I am listening to Das Lied von der Erde this morning. This is the recording with Paul Kletzki and the Philharmonia Orchestra, with tenor Murray Dickie and baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing the alto part. This is a seriously beautiful version. It has really made me rethink the meanings of this work, which I think may be Mahler's greatest achievement. I am impressed with Kletzki's conducting and want to hear more, I know he also recorded the 1st and 4th symphonies. It seems he has been somewhat forgotten.

[LKB]

I was mostly speaking for myself there, and wasn't really trying to posit any kind of universality. For a while, I was listening to Mahler all the time, one symphony per day, minimum, and I could feel the diminishing returns. Where I would once get chills when the choir comes in near the end of the 2nd symphony, I am now less affected. I still appreciate the music of course, but it lacks some of the visceral punch that it carried when I was hearing it infrequently. If you can listen to Mahler every day and enjoy it just as much every time, then by all means, do it. For me, these "peak" experiences are really very valuable, and (again, for me), they can be cheapened with overexposure.

Anyway, that Bernstein DVD set sounds fascinating. As I might have alluded to before, I'm a big fan of Bernstein in Mahler, and I have his earlier Sony Mahler symphonies cycle and really enjoy it. As for the Karajan live 9th, it seems consensus states that it's the best out there. I must get it. I'm also looking at the Barbirolli/Berlin/EMI which is currently very cheap on Amazon.

I am listening to Das Lied von der Erde this morning. This is the recording with Paul Kletzki and the Philharmonia Orchestra, with tenor Murray Dickie and baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing the alto part. This is a seriously beautiful version. It has really made me rethink the meanings of this work, which I think may be Mahler's greatest achievement. I am impressed with Kletzki's conducting and want to hear more, I know he also recorded the 1st and 4th symphonies. It seems he has been somewhat forgotten.

It seems l expressed myself poorly, always a danger when rambling ( For me anyway ).

When l refer to having Mahler in my daily life, I'm not talking about listening. I'm talking about thinking. The symphonies and song cycles have resided in memory for many years now, and it's not unusual for that stereo - between - the - ears to be running even before I'm fully awake. ( Which is fine if it's the beginning of Symphonies 1 or 4, both of which present an easy opening to anyone's day. If it's no. 6, ruh roh... )

In truth, l rarely listen to the symphonies now. But it's not unusual for me to have several keep me company at work, an internal soundtrack embellished by humming, whistling or quietly singing if l can manage it without disturbing anyone.

That is what l was referring to.

From the standpoint of listening, l would agree that his music is served best in isolation. A Mahler symphony is a banquet of ideas and emotions, and a listener should have an opportunity for digestion afterwards. ( Haitink knows this, and in years past has programmed the Seventh as a concert in itself while on tour. )

You can't really follow Mahler with anything (imho)... except more Mahler, i.e. the Adagio from no. 10 or, perhaps, Blumine.

For whatever it's worth, my preferred recordings:

Symphony no. 1
Bernstein/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Symphony no. 2
CBSO/Auger, Baker/Rattle/EMI

Symphony no. 3
Bernstein/WP/Ludwig, Wiener Knabenchor/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Symphony no. 4, tie:

Bernstein/Mathis/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Haitink/COA/Ameling/Philips

Symphony no. 5
Bernstein/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

( Readers will possibly have discerned a pattern at this point...  )

Symphony no. 6
von Karajan/BPO/Deutsche Grammophone

Symphony no. 7
Haitink/COA/Philips 1983

Symphony no. 8
Solti/Soloists, Wiener Singverein, Wiener Knabenchor/CSO/Decca

Symphony no. 9
von Karajan/BPO/Deutsche Grammophone Live 1982

Symphony no. 10 Adagio
Bernstein/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Szell/Schwarzkopf, Fischer - Dieskau/LSO/EMI

Kindertotenlieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Rückert Lieder
Barbirolli/Baker/HO/EMI

Das Klagende Lied
Haitink/COA/Philips

Das Lied von der Erde, tie:

von Karajan/Kollo, Ludwig/BPO/Deutsche Grammophone

Haitink/King, Baker/COA/Philips

Cheers,

LKB

[vers la flamme]

^Interesting thoughts. I find his music tends to follow me throughout the day, too. I can't stop thinking about Das Lied von der Erde after starting the day with it. (Wow, that Kletzki was a phenomenal performance...) I can't believe what a beautiful experience that Mahler has created in that song cycle.

Anyway, speaking of DLvdE, it appears we share a favorite recording, the Haitink/RCO with Janet Baker and James King. It's the first I heard and, I think, the best all-around of the few I've heard. Baker is incredible here. But I'm new to the work and must hear more. I am new to Mahler as a whole, I started listening to and loving his music in around April.

Thanks for sharing your favorites! If I were to undertake such an exercise, the results would be pretty uninteresting (a lot of Bernstein/NYPO). I'm not really in a phase of seeking out new recordings at the moment, but I will likely pick up one or two additional recordings of the 9th and possibly also DLvdE, which is quickly becoming my favorite of Mahler's works. Of the former I am leaning towards Karajan and Barbirolli; as for the latter, I really want to get the Krips/Wunderlich/DFD and also the Walter/VPO/Ferrier, possibly even the Karajan/Ludwig/Kollo you've mentioned. I love what I've heard of each of these.

Enough rambling for me, again, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Sergeant Rock]

For whatever it's worth, my preferred recordings:

I have over 400 Mahler CDs and LPs and it amazes me that many of your favorites coincide with my top 1, 2 or 3:


Symphony no. 1
Honeck/Pittsburgh
Bernstein/Concertgebouw

Symphony no. 2
Kaplan/Vienna
Bernstein/New York (DG)
Maazel/Vienna

Symphony no. 3
Horenstein/LSO
Bernstein/New York (Sony)

Symphony no. 4
Maazel/Vienna with Battle
Szell/Cleveland with Raskin

Symphony no. 5
Dohnányi/Cleveland
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Neumann/Gewandhaus Leipzig

Symphony no. 6
Solti/Chicago
Karajan/Berlin
Szell/Cleveland

Symphony no. 7
Klemperer/Philharmonia (An eccentric first choice, I know...but I love old Klemp)
Bernstein/New York (Sony)

Symphony no. 8
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Solti/Chicago

Symphony no. 9
Karajan/Berlin Live 1982
Haitink/Concertgebouw

Symphony no. 10 (Cooke) Philly rules in this symphony 
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Levine/Philadelphia

Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Boulez/Cleveland with Kozena and Gerharer
Szell/LSO with Schwarzkopf/Fischer-Dieskau

Kindertotenlieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Rückert Lieder
Barbirolli/Hallé with Baker

Das Klagende Lied
Sinopoli/Philharmonia with Studer/Meier/Goldberg/Allen
Chailly/DSO Berlin with Dunn/Fassbaender/Hollweg/Schmidt

Das Lied von der Erde
Haitink/Concertgebouw with King/Baker
Klemperer/Philharmonia with Wunderlich/Ludwig


Sarge

[aukhawk]

It's not obviously true with Mahler although of his more or less conventionally structured symphonies only 1 and 6 seem clearly dominated by the finales; the 2nd is probably a borderline case, 3 and 4 are "top-heavy". Not sure about 5 and 7. (The 8th and "lied von der erde" are not conventional enough for such an evaluation to make a lot of sense.)

I would suggest Mahler's 2nd is one of the most obvious examples of a front-heavy symphony.
4 is an oddity being classical in spirit but the 3rd movement is dominant.  3 seems surprisingly well-balanced considering its unconventional layout.

But some of this music begs the question "what is a symphony?".  (Answer: the composer called it a symphony, end of.)

[Jo498]

I would suggest Mahler's 2nd is one of the most obvious examples of a front-heavy symphony.

Why? I personally find the finale not so great, but it is a huge movement and considerably longer than the first one. It might be debatable, but it's hardly obvious that a 30 min movement with a choir and gong and stuff is not heavy enough as counterweight for a fairly conventional first movement that is not that far from Beethoven's or Bruckner's 9th.

4 is an oddity being classical in spirit but the 3rd movement is dominant.  3 seems surprisingly well-balanced considering its unconventional layout.

But some of this music begs the question "what is a symphony?".  (Answer: the composer called it a symphony, end of.)

I think only the 8th begs that question to some extent. (Even that one is not quite as odd as Berlioz "Romeo & Juliette" two generations earlier.) Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th) but mostly share similar types of and sequences of movements with other late romantic symphonies contemporary with or shortly before Mahler.

[Crudblud]

Joining in the listing of favourite recordings:

Symphony No. 1
Kubelík 1979

Symphony No. 2
Scherchen 1958
Gielen 1996

Symphony No. 3
Adler 1952
Boulez 2001

Symphony No. 4
Reiner 1959
Mengelberg 1939

Symphony No. 5
Walter 1947
Barshai 2001

Symphony No. 6
Eschenbach 2005
Tennstedt 1983

Symphony No. 7
Gielen 1993
Scherchen 1965

Symphony No. 8
Abbado 1995
Scherchen 1951

Das Lied von der Erde
Klemperer 1967
Walter 1960

Symphony No. 9
Barbirolli 1964

[vers la flamme]

So the Barbirolli/Berlin 9th is worthy, eh? I may have to pick one up while it's cheap on amazon.

[Crudblud]

So the Barbirolli/Berlin 9th is worthy, eh? I may have to pick one up while it's cheap on amazon.

Well, I certainly like it very much. I would have perhaps put Walter 1961 in there as well. Barbirolli is more on the balanced and economical side, the music is not dragged out, nor is the first movement given too much prominence. I'm not so keen on the ~90 minute "soggy handkerchief" interpretation that some conductors go for.

[vers la flamme]

Well, I certainly like it very much. I would have perhaps put Walter 1961 in there as well. Barbirolli is more on the balanced and economical side, the music is not dragged out, nor is the first movement given too much prominence. I'm not so keen on the ~90 minute "soggy handkerchief" interpretation that some conductors go for.

When you put it that way, I'm not so sure I'd appreciate such an interpretation either,

Walter is one I also need to check out. I'm listening to Walter's Mahler 1st now, with the Columbia SO, very good, maybe the best recording of this symphony, though Kubelík is also great and I will always love the Bernstein/NYPO. I have ordered the Karajan/Berlin live 9th recently and am really excited to hear it. (Does this count as a "soggy handkerchief" version, I wonder). I hear that Giulini/Chicago is also worthy, though I'm not really a huge Giulini guy. So many choices....

[Cato]

Concerning the Mahler Ninth Symphony, I have earlier mentioned this recording from nearly 60 years ago.

[asin]B00EB1QXE6[/asin]

Leopold Ludwig is not remembered much today...but he should be!

I hear that Giulini/Chicago is also worthy, though I'm not really a huge Giulini guy. So many choices....

Yes, it is quite worthy!

As for the other symphonies, never to be forgotten is the set by Rafael Kubelik on DGG and the newer set by Pierre Boulez also on DGG.

The George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recordings of Mahler are always on the list!   0:)

Two specific recordings which always stand out:  Leonard Bernstein's Columbia recording of the Symphony #8 and Eugene Ormandy's RCA recording of the Symphony #2.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

When you put it that way, I'm not so sure I'd appreciate such an interpretation either,

Walter is one I also need to check out. I'm listening to Walter's Mahler 1st now, with the Columbia SO, very good, maybe the best recording of this symphony, though Kubelík is also great and I will always love the Bernstein/NYPO. I have ordered the Karajan/Berlin live 9th recently and am really excited to hear it. (Does this count as a "soggy handkerchief" version, I wonder). I hear that Giulini/Chicago is also worthy, though I'm not really a huge Giulini guy. So many choices....

Not a Giulini guy myself, but the Chicago Mahler is terrific. For great Mahler 1sts that are not historic, here are some other greats: Nezet-Seguin/BRSO. Boulez/CSO. And Haitink/CSO... surprisingly, perhaps. And, one historic one that's very gruff and great: Suitner/Dresden.