Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[ritter]

That last movement of the 7th is so awful that I almost think maybe it was intentional, an irony or spoof. When I think that way, it sounds absolutely perfect!

That's how i've always understood it too.

I've always seen the finale of the 7th Symphony something like "the prelude to Die Mesistersinger gone mad".

[springrite]

I've always seen the finale of the 7th Symphony something like "the prelude to Die Mesistersinger gone mad".

Cosima Wagner's Apprentice's Merry Pranks

[SurprisedByBeauty]

That's how i've always understood it too.

That's a modern -- and I would argue: mistaken -- interpretation that started in the 70s when we loved Mahler enough to admire him but were suspicious enough of C-major to allow for it, unless it was ironic. A bit more on that here: https://www.steinway.com/zh_TW/artists/gustav-mahler

[vers la flamme]

Wow, so many amazing posts since I last checked in here a few days ago. I have much to respond to, so I'll start here:

A bit late now since you've already listened to it, but I do think that in the right hands (Honeck springs to mind) the very opening 4 minutes of the 1st Symphony sounds like, well, the opening of the entire symphony cycle.  Similar to the opening of Das Rheingold starting off the entire 4 operas of Der Ring.

I think the opening of Mahler's 1st owes much to the opening of Das Rheingold and also the opening of Beethoven's 9th.  Either way, it's quite a courageous way to start a symphony cycle, big shoes to fill. In any case, we all know that fill them he did, and more, so I guess it worked to his advantage in the end. I think that under the capable baton of Bruno Walter (the recording I listened to, with the Columbia Symphony) the exact effect you describe is realized nicely. In fact, it was hearing that recording that made me want to begin this foolhardy quest in the first place.

@Cato, very eloquently written, my friend. I guess that's one of the things that music is for, expressing meanings that we cannot express with words. In any case, I'm sure the Mahler 9th means many things to many people, and may also mean nothing at all. But it's true that whatever any "meaning" behind it all exists, it is impossible to express in the written word. I will say this much, I'm beginning to disagree more and more that it is supposed to be some kind of big farewell to life or a death ode for himself, though I respect the interpretations of those who see it that way. One final thought for you, Cato; I just wanted to express my gratitude for your point of view from a long life spent with Mahler's music and all the perspective it brings. I got into Mahler's music about 6 months ago, so I am very new to it all, so your experienced perspective is greatly appreciated.

Well, I am continuing my Mahler symphonies quest with the fourth symphony today. I am still quite obsessed with the George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recording, and this is the one I'm listening to:



I think what he does with bringing out the playful counterpoint of the symphony, especially the first movement, is just amazing and has brought so much new perspective on the symphony to my eyes (and ears). I now find this actually a very dark work. It is playful and indulgent and ebullient, yet also concise and tragic; one must take the good with the bad. This is the work which brought me to Mahler in the first place, and I still rank it as a favorite.

Yesterday, I listened to the third symphony in its entirety in one sitting for, I believe, the first time. I listened to the Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic recording on Sony, and I found it absolutely phenomenal. I now believe it may yet be the greatest of the Wunderhorn symphonies. I will be spending more time with this recording in the future. I would often listen to single movements at a time, just given the extreme length of the work, but I believe it to be much more powerful when played in full.

I have discovered another new favorite in the Bruno Walter/New York Philharmonic recording of the 2nd symphony. I'll detail my thoughts later, as this message is already getting to be quite long.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. Just wanted to share some of my thoughts. I am really crazy about Mahler lately and enjoying this listening project very much. I have no real rules about it and I'm listening to different conductors and orchestras for each symphony. I don't know if I'd be quite so patient if it were a single cycle that I was listening to!

[Cato]

Hear! Hear!

Ah, Cato! I love your philosophical stance and the lens you use to ponder the meaning of music! 

I enjoyed reading this.   

+ 1

I love the image of the kaleidoscope. Music is reborn every time you hear it...

@Cato, very eloquently written, my friend. I guess that's one of the things that music is for, expressing meanings that we cannot express with words. In any case, I'm sure the Mahler 9th means many things to many people, and may also mean nothing at all. But it's true that whatever any "meaning" behind it all exists, it is impossible to express in the written word. I will say this much, I'm beginning to disagree more and more that it is supposed to be some kind of big farewell to life or a death ode for himself, though I respect the interpretations of those who see it that way. One final thought for you, Cato; I just wanted to express my gratitude for your point of view from a long life spent with Mahler's music and all the perspective it brings. I got into Mahler's music about 6 months ago, so I am very new to it all, so your experienced perspective is greatly appreciated.

Well, I am continuing my Mahler symphonies quest with the fourth symphony today. I am still quite obsessed with the George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recording, ...

The question from Vers La Flamme was an intriguing one, an excellent catalyst. 

Certainly one can understand why people interpret the Ninth Symphony as a "farewell," but no, the music can summon forth quite different ideas.

"Music is reborn every time you hear it!"   0:)   Amen!

George Szell was a great conductor, no matter the composer: I do not know of any extant recording in which he seems to have gone awry.  Possibly somebody somewhere has a candidate, but I do not know of any.  Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, Dvorak, Mahler etc. they are all excellent: and the Cleveland Orchestra in the later 1950's and '60's was not all that well paid by any means: many members had part-time jobs to make ends meet!  Yet they gave their all for the music and to work for the admittedly temperamental Mr. Szell.

[aukhawk]

Well, I am continuing my Mahler symphonies quest with the fourth symphony today. I am still quite obsessed with the George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recording, and this is the one I'm listening to:

The Szell recording of the 4th haa always held a very high place indeed in the list of available recordings.
I've never heard it.

[Cato]

The Szell recording of the 4th haa always held a very high place indeed in the list of available recordings.
I've never heard it.

Thank you, YouTube!

https://www.youtube.com/v/aDhb0ztacM0

[Alek Hidell]

Jens, please forgive a pedantic question. In your article you say:

Mahler was at the time exacerbated about Richard Strauss's mercantilist attitude to art ...

I've never seen the word exacerbated used in this way. Do you mean exercised?

Sorry. Pedantic mode off. Please continue, folks.

[vers la flamme]

The Szell recording of the 4th haa always held a very high place indeed in the list of available recordings.
I've never heard it.

Well worth a listen, my friend. I just picked it up on CD and I have been loving it.

Today I am listening again to Pierre Boulez conducting Mahler's 5th. The 5th was an early favorite in Mahler, but lately it just hasn't been making sense the way it used to. Maybe it's the recording. It blew me away the first time I heard it, so I don't really think that's the problem, but who knows.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Jens, please forgive a pedantic question. In your article you say:

I've never seen the word exacerbated used in this way. Do you mean exercised?

Sorry. Pedantic mode off. Please continue, folks.

Hmmm... for a second you had me wonder! I suppose "exercised" would work, although that wouldn't have been in my active vocab. for that occasion. Either means a variation of "indignant", "apoplectic", breathlessly outraged... I think "exacerbated" works, even if it mightn't be ideal.

[Cato]

Hmmm... for a second you had me wonder! I suppose "exercised" would work, although that wouldn't have been in my active vocab. for that occasion. Either means a variation of "indignant", "apoplectic", breathlessly outraged... I think "exacerbated" works, even if it mightn't be ideal.

The primary meaning of "exacerbate" is "to increase or worsen a negative condition," e.g. bitterness of feeling, or a disease.

My dictionary lists "embitter the feelings of" or "exasperate" as secondary definitions.  I would probably have written "exasperated by," or "appalled by," but apparently it is not impossible to use "exacerbate."

[calyptorhynchus]

The primary meaning of "exacerbate" is "to increase or worsen a negative condition," e.g. bitterness of feeling, or a disease.

My dictionary lists "embitter the feelings of" or "exasperate" as secondary definitions.  I would probably have written "exasperated by," or "appalled by," but apparently it is not impossible to use "exacerbate."

The pedant in me wants to say that this would only work if Mahler had been agitated about someone else's mercenary (not mercantilist) dealings and Strauss's similar actions made it worse. 😀

[vers la flamme]

I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

[Madiel]

People here have previously tried to help me with the 8th, after my first recording (Rattle) felt like overbearing joyous shouting. I know one of the suggestions was Nagano, which I did sample and thought there might be something there but I don't think I tried the whole thing.

Now I have the Gielen box, which I'm slowly working through. So I'm not up to the 8th yet, but I'll listen with slight trepidation. The fact is a lot of people who like Mahler take an exception to the 8th, and I might well be one of them. The overbearing joyous shouting might be inherent in the music and it remains to be seen whether any conductor can save me from it.

[Marc]

I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

I think Haitink once said that he himself was not really into the 8th when he recorded it for Philips for his Amsterdam integral. Appreciaton for the work grew when he himself grew older.
Funny enough, I myself always kinda liked the Atlanta/Shaw 8, despite the sometimes awful pronouncation of the German language.

In general, my 'consoling' advice would be: if you don't like/grab/understand the 8th, don't worry. You're not alone.

My personal fav recording is Ozawa, btw. (For what it's worth, it's been too long since I last listened to it.)

[Biffo]

I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

The 8th is my least favourite by a long way and I have to be in a special mood to appreciate it. Haitink/Concertgebouw is not a good choice, I found it generally lacklustre and I am a great fan of Haitink in Mahler. On the other hand I find it difficult to think of a recommendation, possibly Chailly/Concertgebouw.

I have never heard the 8th live but think you should definitely do so if you have the chance, I am sure it will be an overwhelming experience.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I agree with the others: Haitink's 8th is not good and even Haitink was not holding back with his general dislike of the work. And boy, you can hear it if a conductor doesn't really like the work. Same with Boulez, who only recorded it to finish the cycle. And there's a reason Fischer Ivan hasn't recorded it (yet?) - he can't stand it either and told me once that he'd never record it, simply because there are others out there, that would do so much of a better job at it, than he. I REALLY hope he'll stick to it and be so gutsy and bold and wonderfully honest to invite a guest conductor to lead the BFO in the 8th when it comes to finishing the cycle, which I assume they'd like to do.

I back the consensus re: Ozawa... in fact, on self-indulgent days, I'd like to think that I had a bit of a hand in reviving the wider appreciation of that recording. I've been its disciple - and vociferous about it, too - for something like the last 15 years, if not longer.

Re: The above point of not liking the 8th: Liking it too much can be bad, too: Conductors that tend towards enjoying clowning-about, 'great moments', spectacular hops and grand gestures a little too much (I'm looking at you, Leonard Slatkin... and pretty much any Bernstein student) will push it over the top.  Neither do I like the tres sportif approach (Rattle, Solti, Gielen I) that turns it into an athletic challenge and drives through it in linear fashion. I prefer those best, who really turn it into musical fantasy-land Debussy. Colors, hovering. And neverending, Shepard-tone-style climaxes in the shape of question marks.

[relm1]

I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

I've seen it in concert several times and it can pack a real emotional punch in the right hands.  I absolutely adored the gargantuan forces used with Dudamel and the combined chorus's (several Los Angeles choirs), and LA Phil plus Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra.  I was in the front row because the event was completely sold out but called box office every day (as ticketing services told me to do) checking to see if there had been a return ticket.  Every day I called and finally on the day of the concert, I got a returned ticket I was able to pick up!  I was right in front of the very beautiful soloist and I couldn't keep my eyes off her she was so entranced and almost tearing up at the beauty of the spectacle.  The soloist was Manuela Uhl and she made the whole concert feel so intimate.  I hope I didn't freak her out because I couldn't keep my eyes off her even when she was sitting with tremendous noises surrounding us, my focus was on her.  They used 1,200 forces I believe and the experience was unforgettable.  Another nice event that day was bumping in to Dame Julie Andrews who was also in the audience and looked elegant and lovely as you'd expect.  The work isn't flawless but is an experience and in the right hands very moving. 

[Mirror Image]

I agree with the others: Haitink's 8th is not good and even Haitink was not holding back with his general dislike of the work. And boy, you can hear it if a conductor doesn't really like the work. Same with Boulez, who only recorded it to finish the cycle. And there's a reason Fischer Ivan hasn't recorded it (yet?) - he can't stand it either and told me once that he'd never record it, simply because there are others out there, that would do so much of a better job at it, than he. I REALLY hope he'll stick to it and be so gutsy and bold and wonderfully honest to invite a guest conductor to lead the BFO in the 8th when it comes to finishing the cycle, which I assume they'd like to do.

I back the consensus re: Ozawa... in fact, on self-indulgent days, I'd like to think that I had a bit of a hand in reviving the wider appreciation of that recording. I've been its disciple - and vociferous about it, too - for something like the last 15 years, if not longer.

Re: The above point of not liking the 8th: Liking it too much can be bad, too: Conductors that tend towards enjoying clowning-about, 'great moments', spectacular hops and grand gestures a little too much (I'm looking at you, Leonard Slatkin... and pretty much any Bernstein student) will push it over the top.  Neither do I like the tres sportif approach (Rattle, Solti, Gielen I) that turns it into an athletic challenge and drives through it in linear fashion. I prefer those best, who really turn it into musical fantasy-land Debussy. Colors, hovering. And neverending, Shepard-tone-style climaxes in the shape of question marks.

I never have liked Mahler's 8th and even upon revisiting it a year or so ago, I turned it off. It's so over-the-top and swims in its' own grandiosity. Thank goodness this symphony didn't end the cycle! This would have been a terrible footnote to an otherwise stellar symphonic cycle.

[j winter]

... The fact is a lot of people who like Mahler take an exception to the 8th, and I might well be one of them. ...

+1  I've listened to a lot of Mahler for years, and I agree, the 8th is by far my least favorite.  Even watching Lenny do it on video leaves me cold.  But then I also tend to prefer the orchestral to the vocal side of things, so I think it's largely a matter of personal taste for me. 


But I have to admit, my recent attempts have been few and far between.  It's possible I haven't given it a fair chance -- I'd be curious if anyone recommends a recording that really opened it up for them....