Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[vers la flamme]

I don't have a recording of Totenfeier in my library. How much am I missing out? Ie. how much does it differ from the first movement of the Resurrection?

[Biffo]

I don't have a recording of Totenfeier in my library. How much am I missing out? Ie. how much does it differ from the first movement of the Resurrection?

It is interesting to hear but not essential, Boulez and others have recorded it.

[krummholz]

I've been curious about that 4th; I don't think the choice to use a boy soprano is a mistake in and of itself, but I can see how it might lead to something bad. I do like his NYPO 4th with Reri Grist.

I can't recommend the Bernstein NYPO 4th strongly enough, a wonderful performance, both by the orchestra and Ms. Grist. I'm not sure, either, whether the choice of a boy soprano in his DG 4th was a mistake in and of itself, but I find this particular performance to be cringeworthy. My personal favorite is the classic Szell reading with the Cleveland Orchestra and Judith Raskin, but Bernstein/Grist is a very close second.

[vers la flamme]

I can't recommend the Bernstein NYPO 4th strongly enough, a wonderful performance, both by the orchestra and Ms. Grist. I'm not sure, either, whether the choice of a boy soprano in his DG 4th was a mistake in and of itself, but I find this particular performance to be cringeworthy. My personal favorite is the classic Szell reading with the Cleveland Orchestra and Judith Raskin, but Bernstein/Grist is a very close second.

My first two choices are the same as yours, though I will be revisiting the first 4th I ever heard, Reiner/Chicago, when it comes in the mail... I just ordered it.

Moreover, I'm afraid I must admit that my willpower has failed me, and I ordered this...:



My philosophy is buy it now while it's cheap ($20, shipping included!—less than half the price of any other copy I could find on the internet), open it in a year. As I may have mentioned I'm trying to take a break from Lenny's Mahler, but I have long been curious about his DG cycle.

[Mahlerian]

I don't have a recording of Totenfeier in my library. How much am I missing out? Ie. how much does it differ from the first movement of the Resurrection?

The orchestration is different (and shows how Mahler improved as an orchestrator over the course of his career), and there's a short section near the end of the development that was cut and replaced with a shorter passage.

Like Biffo said, it's interesting but far from essential. The final version is a distinct improvement, and I don't think Boulez's recording of Totenfeier is all that good in terms of performance, either (though I like his recording of the Second itself pretty well).

[vers la flamme]

Thanks, I think I'll pass on Totenfeier until it turns up as filler on some CD or another.

I returned to Bernstein's Mahler 4 after spending a lot of time with other recordings (Szell/Cleveland, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Levi/Atlanta) and I think I can say for certain that it's my favorite. I do have the Reiner/Chicago CD en route to me now, and I'm also considering getting the Maazel/Vienna. I'm not crazy about Maazel normally, but I have heard great things about that Mahler 4.

Anyone else as crazy about the 4th as I am? It was my introduction to Mahler, and my opinion on it tends to waver, but right now it seems I'm hooked.

[ritter]

...
Anyone else as crazy about the 4th as I am? It was my introduction to Mahler, and my opinion on it tends to waver, but right now it seems I'm hooked.

My favourite Mahler symphony by a wide margin (followed by the Ninth and then, probably, the Sixth). For me, it was also my first exposure to Mahler (at age 6 or so--just a couple of years ago, that is  ). There's a restraint--or reining in of excesses--that makes this piece very "classical" and very alluring to me, all four movements. But it has one short passage in the first movement (I believe it's marked "10" in the score, fliessend ohne Hast, just 16 measures or so), in which the flutes play a "bucolic" theme, underpinned by warbling figures of the strings and with interjections of the clarinet and bassoon, which is pure magic. The scoring in this passage is paired down to the minimum, and there's a transparency in the music which is admirable and highlights some wonderful counterpoint. One of my favourite musical passages ever--not only by Mahler.

Favourite recording: Abbado's first attempt with the VPO, one of the great Mahler recordings of all time IMHO. And the unexpected use of a mezzo in the final lied works wonderfully. Frederica von Stade is both childlike and warm at the same time. Really beautiful singing.


Even the cover is great 

A recording I didn't like at all: Michael Gielen's on Hänssler (form the otherwise admirable cycle). To me it's like a caricature of what an "objective" interpretation should be, and soprano Christine Whittlesey in the last movement sounds like a characer out of that 1930s movie serial The Little Rascals (a.k.a. Our Gang)--not a glimose of any heavenly innonce there!  I read some guy likes this particular recording. À chacun son goût. 

[Jo498]

I think the Gielen Mahler 4th is pretty good but severely marred by the soprano and therefore one of the overall less successful of his Mahler. (Admittedly, I have not heard any of his Mahler Lieder or LvdE).
My favorite Mahler 4th is Abranavel/Davrath (Vanguard) although I have not heard several of the usual suspects such as Stade/Abbado or Szell.

[vers la flamme]

My favourite Mahler symphony by a wide margin (followed by the Ninth and then, probably, the Sixth). For me, it was also my first exposure to Mahler (at age 6 or so--just a couple of years ago, that is  ). There's a restraint--or reining in of excesses--that makes this piece very "classical" and very alluring to me, all four movements. But it has one short passage in the first movement (I believe it's marked "10" in the score, fliessend ohne Hast, just 16 measures or so), in which the flutes play a "bucolic" theme, underpinned by warbling figures of the strings and with interjections of the clarinet and bassoon, which is pure magic. The scoring in this passage is paired down to the minimum, and there's a transparency in the music which is admirable and highlights some wonderful counterpoint. One of my favourite musical passages ever--not only by Mahler.

Favourite recording: Abbado's first attempt with the VPO, one of the great Mahler recordings of all time IMHO. And the unexpected use of a mezzo in the final lied works wonderfully. Frederica von Stade is both childlike and warm at the same time. Really beautiful singing.


Even the cover is great 

A recording I didn't like at all: Michael Gielen's on Hänssler (form the otherwise admirable cycle). To me it's like a caricature of what an "objective" interpretation should be, and soprano Christine Whittlesey in the last movement sounds like a characer out of that 1930s movie serial The Little Rascals (a.k.a. Our Gang)--not a glimose of any heavenly innonce there!  I read some guy likes this particular recording. À chacun son goût. 

Wow, nice! It seems it's not the favorite of a lot of Mahlerians, with some even saying it's one of his worst or "least Mahler-like". I couldn't disagree more.

You've inspired me to listen and read along w/ the score again to find that moment you've mentioned, which I will probably do tomorrow. I have the Levi/Atlanta which also features Ms. von Stade and she does deliver a nice performance, yes, though my copy is marred with a glitch which makes it unlistenable. But that Abbado/Vienna looks great. I'm going to check it out. I'm trying to hear more of Abbado's Mahler. Seems folks either love him or hate him.

Thoughts on the Karajan Mahler 4, anyone?

[André]

Abbado is a fine Mahler conductor, but not among the best for my taste. I feel he keeps the music at arm's length - musical distancing, so to speak. I recall liking that 4th symphony very much, but it's just too long ago for a firm opinion - had it on cassette, way back when...

[vers la flamme]

Abbado seems to divide opinion, both in Mahler in elsewhere. Some seem to rate him as a favorite while others see him as no more than a fraud. I have two CDs of his Mahler: the 7th w/ the Chicago Symphony from his original cycle, and the 6th from his later cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic. Both are quite good but I find myself questioning what exactly is Abbado's vision for Mahler. I like his 6th because it's less histrionic than my other recording, Bernstein/NYPO.

[Sergeant Rock]

A recording I didn't like at all: Michael Gielen's on Hänssler (form the otherwise admirable cycle). To me it's like a caricature of what an "objective" interpretation should be, and soprano Christine Whittlesey in the last movement sounds like a characer out of that 1930s movie serial The Little Rascals (a.k.a. Our Gang)--not a glimose of any heavenly innonce there!  I read some guy likes this particular recording. À chacun son goût. 

I agree, Whittlesey is a ghastly soloist. Ruins the entire performance. I'm not a fan of Gielen's cycle, at all, but it is the Fourth that I really hate. It is the low point.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Abbado seems to divide opinion, both in Mahler in elsewhere.

Count me among the naysayers. Although von Stade is one of my favorite mezzos (heard her do the Fourth live with Maazel and the Cleveland) I'm not a fan of Abbado's Fourth.

Sarge

[vers la flamme]

Count me among the naysayers. Although von Stade is one of my favorite mezzos (heard her do the Fourth live with Maazel and the Cleveland) I'm not a fan of Abbado's Fourth.

Sarge

Should I take it from your dislike of both Gielen and Abbado that you favor the more "hot blooded" school of Mahlerian conducting, Sarge? Bernstein, Tennstedt, Horenstein, maybe?

Edit: going back to your post a few pages back with your top three of each symphony, it looks like this isn't far from the truth! 

How would you describe Maazel's Mahler? It seems you're one of the few champions of his cycle.

[relm1]

Abbado is a fine Mahler conductor, but not among the best for my taste. I feel he keeps the music at arm's length - musical distancing, so to speak. I recall liking that 4th symphony very much, but it's just too long ago for a firm opinion - had it on cassette, way back when...

I've heard nothing but very positive things from performers who have performed under Abbado on Mahler.  It might be the sort of thing where the performance doesn't fully translate to a recording.  But several players I know said his interpretation (or at least the experience of it) was a phenomenal and unforgettable experience.  Listeners don't always experience the same gravitas as the performers.

[JBS]

Thoughts on the Karajan Mahler 4, anyone?

I very much like Karajan's Fifth and Sixth recordings, but have no remembrance of his Fourth beyond knowing I have it...so it must have struck me as being on a much lesser plane.

Abbado conducted both one of my favorite Mahler recordings (7th with Berlin) and my least favorite Mahler recording (2nd with Vienna).  Not every conductor can be that hit or miss! Although now that I think of it, Zinman accomplished the same thing: his 9th is my favorite recording of that symphony, but I never want to hear his 10th again.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I agree, Whittlesey is a ghastly soloist. Ruins the entire performance. I'm not a fan of Gielen's cycle, at all, but it is the Fourth that I really hate. It is the low point.

Sarge

I'm glad to see we're still in lockstep re: Most of Mahler and this recording in particular.

My favorite remains Haitink IV; The recent Vanska is very good, too. Both are propelled by very nicely suited voices!

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/01/gustav-mahler-symphony-no4-part-3.html

[ritter]

Abbado conducted...my least favorite Mahler recording (2nd with Vienna).  Not every conductor can be that hit or miss!

I don't know the Vienna recording, but found his first approach (with Chicago) utterly undistinguished. Perhaps good old Claudio didn't have much affinity with the work.

Now that I think of it, I have another recording of the Second conducted by Abbado (from Lucerne, included in "Claudio Abbado Symphony Edition"), but haven't listened to it. Hopefully,  "third time lucky" applies here. 

[Mahlerian]

Abbado conducted both one of my favorite Mahler recordings (7th with Berlin) and my least favorite Mahler recording (2nd with Vienna).  Not every conductor can be that hit or miss! Although now that I think of it, Zinman accomplished the same thing: his 9th is my favorite recording of that symphony, but I never want to hear his 10th again.

Well, Zinman did use the horrific Carpenter "completion" of the Tenth, which is enough to make any recording unlistenable.

[Sergeant Rock]

Should I take it from your dislike of both Gielen and Abbado that you favor the more "hot blooded" school of Mahlerian conducting, Sarge? Bernstein, Tennstedt, Horenstein, maybe?

In general, yes, I prefer emotional heat, even exaggerated heat, although I enjoy a variety of interpretive styles, e.g., my favorite Sixths are Solti and Bernstein (three hammer blows!), Chailly (slow and grim), Szell (classically restrained until the shattering final appearance of fate) and Karajan (sheer beauty); five very different approaches.

How would you describe Maazel's Mahler? It seems you're one of the few champions of his cycle.

Detail driven and controlling (like Klemperer you feel a fist conducting) and mannered (often the music doesn't flow naturally but is distinctly guided), given to slow tempos and powerful climaxes. That reads like a series of negatives, but I love this quirkiness. In his Vienna cycle the only disappointment is his Fifth. He rushes the chorale, ruining the second movement for me. (I confess I prefer conductors in this symphony who make a meal of that moment, like Dohnányi, Chailly, Neumann, Boulez, Kubelik, Solti; dislike especially conductors who I assumed would shine here but fail to deliver, like Bernstein and Maazel and so many others. I bought 18 Fifths before I finally found a wholly satisfying chorale: Neumann/Leipzig.) If you sample just one Maazel performance, please make it the Fourth with Kathleen Battle. Simply gorgeous.

I'm glad to see we're still in lockstep re: Most of Mahler and this recording in particular.

Yes we are usually in agreement (other than about Maazel, that is  )

Sarge