Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[jlaurson]

Very good posts, Jens. This is a good cross spectrum of available 6th symphony recordings. There are two more Barbirollis out there, one with the Berlin Philharmonic, wchich was panned mercelessly by the Classicstoday Mahler pundits (Hurwitz and Hüss). But I've seen good reviews from 'ordinary' listeners. There's also a live Royal Festival Hall interp with the New Philharmonia, practically contemporary from the studio version. The surprise is that Glorious John takes some 11 minutes less on that occasion. apparently the sound is excellent. Anyone heard that ?

Jens, I don't think you were fair to the Szell version. It needs to be played at a much higher than usual playback level. Once you get there, it springs to life with urgency and not a little orchestral virtuosity.

And of course there's that killer Bongartz...

Found Bongartz better than Szell, but not by that much... very tame beginning for such an alleged killer. But very fine playing, indeed.
Irrelevant for my review, though, since it's hopelessly out of print (at least as an individual performance), I understand.
Barbirolli Testament Berlin 6th has unacceptably bad playing--but I'm intrigued to hear of a third performance I did not know.
Hurwitz tends to prefer recordings for which he wrote the liner notes. 

[Lilas Pastia]

Hmmm, Jens. How do you listen to music? Does the hen hatch the egg, or the egg becomes a hen? Methink you seem to be of the former persuasion 

[jlaurson]

Hmmm, Jens. How do you listen to music? Does the hen hatch the egg, or the egg becomes a hen? Methink you seem to be of the former persuasion 

I'm afraid I don't know to what you are referring. But purely scientifically speaking, the egg came first.

Meanwhile:


http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1338


http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1351


http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375


http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382


http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1397

[Lilas Pastia]

The hen hatches the egg. In one second it's there. Can it look anything else  than just another hen's egg? You don't know what happened in the hen's body. It's like Minerva who was 'hatched' fully armoured from Jupiter's cranium (no wonder he had a giant headache).

Or it can be the egg that becomes a hen. You see the egg, you see it moving, then cracks appear, a chick comes out, and it takes it a good while to grow up and become an adult. Could be a hen or a rooster. There are options all along.

It seems to me you are prompt to categorize musical interpretations as so many eggs - small, medium, large, jumbo... I prefer to see hens and roosters growing, and take my time before deciding what to think of it .

[jlaurson]

The hen hatches the egg. In one second it's there. Can it look anything else  than just another hen's egg? You don't know what happened in the hen's body. It's like Minerva who was 'hatched' fully armoured from Jupiter's cranium (no wonder he had a giant headache).

Or it can be the egg that becomes a hen. You see the egg, you see it moving, then cracks appear, a chick comes out, and it takes it a good while to grow up and become an adult. Could be a hen or a rooster. There are options all along.

It seems to me you are prompt to categorize musical interpretations as so many eggs - small, medium, large, jumbo... I prefer to see hens and roosters growing, and take my time before deciding what to think of it .

I still don't follow the analogy, quite frankly. You object to my questioning the Bongartz performance's "Killer status" based on the opening bars?.

What about your egg story. I thought you were referring to the alleged, age-old conundrum: "What came first, the chicken or the egg." 

And the answer to that is: "The egg." Every chicken, without exception, hatches and has ever hatched from an egg, and so did the first ever chicken. But the chicken hasn't always existed, so some other creature (very chicken-like, depending on where you draw the line in this continual process) must have lain that egg from with the genetic mutation now known as "chicken" hath hatched.

[Lilas Pastia]

Just laying an analogy between a seemingly vexating conundrum and the impossibility (for me) to come to definite conclusions about interpretive matters in music. Things can be either clear cut, or in a constant state of evolution.

What I meant to say is that you seem to be of the first persuasion, while others (including me) are from the latter. Just like the egg&hen, there's no right or wrong way, but recognizing the differences in thought processes may be useful and interesting.

re: Bongartz' M6: why just the opening bars? More than any other Mahler symphony, the 6th is really over only when it's over. Seldom has a work ended in such cataclysmic devastation. By that time, the opening bars are a long way. The whole first movement is actually just a prelude. I'd never gauge an interpretation just on that movement, let alone the opening bars...

[jlaurson]

Just laying an analogy between a seemingly vexating conundrum and the impossibility (for me) to come to definite conclusions about interpretive matters in music. Things can be either clear cut, or in a constant state of evolution.

What I meant to say is that you seem to be of the first persuasion, while others (including me) are from the latter. Just like the egg&hen, there's no right or wrong way, but recognizing the differences in thought processes may be useful and interesting.

Well... conclusions are either definite or they are not conclusions. However flawed any assessment of any artistic subject inevitably has to be, If I could not share opinions/conclusions, I might well never have started writing about Mahler recordings and just selectively quoted anecdotes from Henri-L. d.L.G.   
I don't deny the substantial, perhaps even dominating, aspect of subjectivity and such questions, though... if that puts you at ease.

re: Bongartz' M6: why just the opening bars? More than any other Mahler symphony, the 6th is really over only when it's over. Seldom has a work ended in such cataclysmic devastation. By that time, the opening bars are a long way. The whole first movement is actually just a prelude. I'd never gauge an interpretation just on that movement, let alone the opening bars...

Nor do I. I just asked if that had been your perception and thus precipitated the chicken-egg thing, in the first place.

[jlaurson]

Gustav Mahler – Das Lied von der Erde (Part 2)

[Lilas Pastia]

Excellent review, Jens, and I agree with most of your choices !! 

I haven't heard the recent Nagano MSO version - I don't like Nagano, I'm not really fond of the all-male version of the work and am not in need of a new Das Lied anyway. But, following your enthusiastic review I'd certainly be inclined to lend an ear to this release  .

Other options I would suggest are: Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra (live, 1967) - much more flexible than the Reiner recording (that makes 3 of them with that particular pair or Forrester and King!) . Also, the Boulez with Vickers and Yvonne Minton (unofficial) is reather special, as is the oft-cited (and sometimes reviled !) one with Fischer-Dieskau, James King, the WP and Leonard Bernstein (my first DLVDE ever).

[DavidRoss]

Hmmm--on the strength of Jens's review and his top-drawer Mahler 8th, I foresee Nagano's DLVDE in my future!  (Although MTT's excellent recording should more than suffice for the high-test(osterone) version.)

[Lilas Pastia]

I listened to the van Beinum 6th this week (live from the Concertgebouw), on Tahra. This was one instance in which I just couldn't get past the ghastly sound.  I found the first movement rather disjointed. Unsettled would be more charitable I suppose, but I couldn't make sense of the conductor's herky-jerky way with the score. The interpretation is at its considerable best in the fervent, fervid Andante (placed second). The scherzo doesn't leave much of an impression. The finale is imposing and exciting. No hammerblows - some other device was used, probably an extra loud thwack on the bass drum, coupled with a big timpani roll (not in the score). The final kaboom is frightening, even with the unfortunate anticipatory pre-echo - it spoils the effect a bit. The great Amsterdam orchestra was clearly having a rough time keeping up with the conductor. Any second tier orchestra plays better than that nowadays. Still, they have their moments. I don't think I'll listen to this one again, except maybe if I go on a comparison binge.

[jlaurson]

Saw a concert listing recently for Mahler's 10th in a "reconstruction" by Nicola Samale and Giuseppe Mazzuca, also known for their part in various completions of Bruckner's 9th.

Anybody heard this, or know of a recording?

There is only one recording available with that version, and that's Martin Sieghart's with the Arnheim PO on Exton (SACD)


Gusav Mahler
Symphony No.10
Samale-Mazzucca "Ricostruzione"

I've not heard this version on CD or live.
I've provided the German Amazon link, although I suppose few people would want to spend the 518 (!!!) Euros on it  , for which it is officially listed. (Free shipping, though. 
Still expensive in Japan, but more reasonable.

[jlaurson]

And much more reasonable still if you go for the normal SACD instead of the "limited edition" "direct cut" one (whatever that is.)

Oh, yes... I didn't even see the extra digit on the Amazon.co.jp item. Obviously 37000 Yen is not really "more reasonable" for any CD. 3700 is... sort of. Now I've found the German Amazon link for that one, too... HERE, where 42 Euros for two SACD seems the less outrageous. No wonder it's hard to find with their spelling of "Mahler".

[Renfield]

No wonder it's hard to find with their spelling of "Mahler".

That's Gusrav for you.

[Wanderer]

Gusav Mahler
Symphony No.10
Samale-Mazzucca "Ricostruzione"

What a bargain! One might have the urge to buy a 517.99 € shovel and beat them sellers to death with it.

No wonder it's hard to find with their spelling of "Mahler".

Gusrav Marler, the symphonist. 

[Renfield]

Gusrav Marler, the sympronist. 

Corrected!

[jlaurson]

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 1)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454

[DavidRoss]

Too bad Mahler's 4th is still under-appreciated by many who regard themselves as Mahler devotees.  It's a peach. 

Who was it said, "Tragedy's easy, comedy's hard?"

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Too bad Mahler's 4th is still under-appreciated by many who regard themselves as Mahler devotees.  It's a peach. 

One reason for this IMHO is that it was one of the few works that got played frequently during the decades of overall Mahler neglect. Hence, it got a reputation as "Mahler for those who don't like Mahler."

I read some classical music guide published in the 1940s or so, and it said something to the effect of, "Many listeners find Mahler's symphonies long-winded and badly structured. The 4th however is a delightful exception..." A common sentiment in those days.

As a Mahler devotee, I don't like it as much as the other symphonies because it lacks the large-scale, dramatic, apocalyptic element that I regard as part of the essential Mahler style. Also for this reason, it's not a work I would recommend to a Mahler newbie. It doesn't give an accurate picture of the composer.

It's a nice piece for sure, but it doesn't rock my world.

[The new erato]

The 4th is my favorite. Perhaps because it more traditional forms requires him to structure his thoughts. Always a good thing in an artist I think. Probably why Brahms is my favorite romantic composer as well.