Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[knight66]

Over in the Vocal Recital thread I have been banging on about how wonderful the baritone Christian Gerhaher is. Looking through his discography I saw that there was a 'Das Lied von der Erde'.

Can I need another one? I have about 12, including two with all male singers, the Schoenberg reduction and a version accompanied by piano. However, this was a version conducted by Nagano and his Mahler 8th is a surprise favourite of mine. So, when it arrived, I had high hopes. I had not read any reviews of this disc before I heard it.

In sum, I am very glad it cost me as little as it did. The tenor, Klaus Florian Vogt is new to me. It is a sweet and plangent voice, but basically in that first song, a boy was sent in to do a man's job and he has to gentle his way to negotiate round some of it, sounding tremulous on occasion. I want a heroic sound to pit against that wall of sound. I just cannot understand why this singer is attempting this music. And yet, and yet....he is a Wagner singer with Lohengrin and Parsifal in his repertoire!

I was so taken aback by what I was hearing that I listened again through headphones and here the detail he puts into the songs is much clearer. He never barks or shouts, but he sounds under pressure, in the wrong way. It is a poetic approach, though why does a Wagner tenor sound taxed at the top of this third song and occasionally under the note? I wonder how much help he needed from the engineers?

Gerhaher seems very self effacing in this instance in the final song. I want him to let go more. He can do the 'big' phrase, but then somehow the piece dies away. It is a subtle but also a rather subdued performance. I don't feel the grip and the epic arc of that final song, it sounds episodic. This in part would be Nagano's approach. I really felt that everyone would have been happier with the Schoenberg reduction. At one point I looked at the sleve to see whether it was a reduced orchestration, but of course it was not, there had been no piano and the opening of the piece was pretty full on. But thereafter there is a restraint for the most part that worked wonderfully in the 8th Symphony, but here failed me.

Gerhaher really deploys the words, but for example in the first song, he almost uses parlando and I much prefer a more defined legato. But it sounds extemporised, which many of the very best performances of music do. Especially in his second song, he unrolls it for us, though is somewhat pushed later in the wilder part of the song as the horses dash through the water, however, he is far from alone in that.

He is aided and abetted by Nagano who really goes for the filigree textures, the detail, but it ultimately feels small scale, despite the detail and beauty of the playing.

Having now read several reports on the disc, including one by Jens, I can see it divides opinion with the tenor being the main bone of contention.

The booklet lists every player in the orchestra, but ignores the words of the poems.

My three favourite performances on disc are:

Klemperer, stoic, unyielding, bleak.
Kubelik, moving, consoling and supporting the singers.
Levine, plush, exotic, dramatic.

In each case the singers are superb.

Here, I may need to live much longer with what feels like a small scale over subtle approach. Perhaps then it will yield to me its secrets, but on the initial hearings, it goes quite low on the list.

Mike

Edited for spelling

[jlaurson]

The booklet lists every player in the orchestra, but ignores the words of the poems.

Saves a lot of money not to print the words of something that isn't public domain.

KFV was 'dubbed in' afterwards; he recorded his parts in the Herkulessaal...
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=732

[knight66]

Well, I assume this was a full price issue at least initially, so I think the words should be available. I understand when it is a budget issue.

I had not felt that there was any dubbing, though one of the reviews I just read implied as much for at least patches.

Mike

[jlaurson]

Well, I assume this was a full price issue at least initially, so I think the words should be available. I understand when it is a budget issue.

Well, it's still a budget issue, even for full price CDs. I found it disappointing, too, though.

I had not felt that there was any dubbing, though one of the reviews I just read implied as much for at least patches.

Mine did (link above):

"Instead, it sounds like he phoned his contribution in. Actually, he did, in a way: not in perfect health at the concerts, he recorded his parts later, in Munich. But I'm not sure why Vogt's blandness should be the result of dubbing his part in, a month after the live performances."

[kishnevi]

Well, it's still a budget issue, even for full price CDs. I found it disappointing, too, though.

Mine did (link above):

"Instead, it sounds like he phoned his contribution in. Actually, he did, in a way: not in perfect health at the concerts, he recorded his parts later, in Munich. But I'm not sure why Vogt's blandness should be the result of dubbing his part in, a month after the live performances."

To put it bluntly,  Vogt is so weak in this recording that it completely ruins it for me:  nothing Gerharer or Nagano can do will save it for me.

Gerharer has recorded all the piano versions of Mahler's songs (ie, just about everything  except LvdE) over two discs, including the last of the Ruckert Lieder that was never orchestrated by Mahler: even, odd as it may sound (baritone with piano?!) the Urlicht movement of the Second.  The second disk came out about the same time as this LvdE; I highly recommend it.

[Scarpia]

Listened to Vaclav Neumann's Mahler 4, with the Czech Philharmonic.   The first movement is nicely done, lively with just enough weight.  I am always struck that the opening trumpet theme from the 5th symphony seems to be derived from a very similar passage in the first movement of the 4th.  Aside from that, I am reminded that this is far from my favorite music by Mahler.  No revelations here.

[DarkAngel]

Finished this 2 DVD set last night, all three with WP, none of these performances are on CD versions BTW,
Amazon sellers $23 new:

Symphony 4 - 5/1972 (young Edith Mathis)
Symphony 5 - 4/1972
Symphony 6 - 10/1976 (Bernstein has full beard, very unusual looking)

A few comments on the symphony 6 DVD, wonderful camera shots of Bernstein and highlighting instrument sections as they are called upon, highly detailed showing valve workings on french horns, oboe etc. Interesting to see all the unsual sound generators like line of cowbells and bunch of branches beaten agains a flat board, lots of xylophone etc

The star is the huge wooden mallet raised overhead and striking down on a wood platform with loose board on top......I had no idea it was this massive, used three times in this version of 6th

Viewing system is 52" Sony LCD with Oppo Blu Ray player up scaling DVD to 1080P

[DarkAngel]

Listened to Vaclav Neumann's Mahler 4, with the Czech Philharmonic.   The first movement is nicely done, lively with just enough weight.  I am always struck that the opening trumpet theme from the 5th symphony seems to be derived from a very similar passage in the first movement of the 4th.  Aside from that, I am reminded that this is far from my favorite music by Mahler.  No revelations here.

For Neumann I think his best Mahler work was done with Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in 1960s

[Scarpia]

For Neumann I think his best Mahler work was done with Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in 1960s

Agreed.   Just listened to the Czech Phil Mahler 5 from Neumann, and no comparison with this one:

[Opus106]

In connection with the 150th anniversary of Gustav Mahler's birth, as well as Christoph Eschenbach's 70th anniversary in 2010, christoph-eschenbach.com, in collaboration with the websites of the Orchestre de Paris and Medici TV will each offer a unique free streaming experience of all of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies.

Each month, starting on February 19, 2010 and then on the 15th of each month thereafter, a new symphony of Gustav Mahler will be put online for free streaming. Each symphony was recorded with the Orchestre de Paris under the direction of Christoph Eschenbach and filmed by the director François Goetghebeur. By October 15, 2010 the complete symphonies will be online for streaming and remain accessible until at least July 2011.

http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/

[DavidRoss]

In connection with the 150th anniversary of Gustav Mahler's birth, as well as Christoph Eschenbach's 70th anniversary in 2010, christoph-eschenbach.com, in collaboration with the websites of the Orchestre de Paris and Medici TV will each offer a unique free streaming experience of all of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies.

Each month, starting on February 19, 2010 and then on the 15th of each month thereafter, a new symphony of Gustav Mahler will be put online for free streaming. Each symphony was recorded with the Orchestre de Paris under the direction of Christoph Eschenbach and filmed by the director François Goetghebeur. By October 15, 2010 the complete symphonies will be online for streaming and remain accessible until at least July 2011.

http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/

Cool!  Should be interesting, at least.  I rather enjoyed what Eschenbach had to say regarding Mahler here: http://mahler.universaledition.com/christoph-eschenbach-on-mahler/

[Renfield]

In connection with the 150th anniversary of Gustav Mahler's birth, as well as Christoph Eschenbach's 70th anniversary in 2010, christoph-eschenbach.com, in collaboration with the websites of the Orchestre de Paris and Medici TV will each offer a unique free streaming experience of all of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies.

Each month, starting on February 19, 2010 and then on the 15th of each month thereafter, a new symphony of Gustav Mahler will be put online for free streaming. Each symphony was recorded with the Orchestre de Paris under the direction of Christoph Eschenbach and filmed by the director François Goetghebeur. By October 15, 2010 the complete symphonies will be online for streaming and remain accessible until at least July 2011.

http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/

Many thanks for the heads-up.

I know from experience that the Eschenbach/Paris partnership produces some glorious sounds in concert, and I've heard good things about what he does with Mahler (besides what he has to say about him, which is also interesting).

So I'll definitely tune in. Thanks again!

[DarkAngel]

Just watched the 8th in this great Bernstein DVD series recorded Sept 1975, this really is a symphony to be seen as well as heard, the forces assembled are really impressive. The venue changes to the larger Vienna Concert House and behind the enlarged WP orchestra we have Vienna Boys Choir center flanked by two large adult choirs, a distinguished soloist group and in a loft behind Bernstein we have a smaller orchestra with their own conductor......small organ in center has two large sets of timpani drums below it, and Bernstein takes their full measure of these assembled forces, a great performance of the 8th that maybe his best on record, better then DG version for sure.

For Bernstein fans you must get this DVD set of Mahler symphonies with WP from the 1970s, this represents a complete 3rd symphony set to go with 1960s Sony and 1980s DG sets on CD

I am also collecting the new Abbado DVD series of Mahler symphonies, the sound and picture quality are much better and Abbado is very good in his own way, but Bernstein is so impassioned in his performance and dramatic in style that the oppportunity to view these performances cannot be missed by any serious Mahler fan

[knight66]

I assume the semi orchestra is all brass, otherwise, any idea what the purpose of it is?

Mike

[DarkAngel]

I assume the semi orchestra is all brass, otherwise, any idea what the purpose of it is?
Mike

I believe the remote small group in balcony is intended to impart a "heavenly" fanfare effect, and they are all brass as far as I can tell. Only shown on camera during the closing minutes......provide a spiritual answer to the earthbound brass clarion call, check them out at 4:45 and 5:40 of the grand finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4zScwFBMTs

Also you can see the general layout set for Bernstein......
I do think a more powerful prominent cathedral size organ bass would be even better here, I like to shake the heavens

[knight66]

Thanks, terrific, there are some wonderfully resonant bases in the choir at the start of that extract. Bernstein is utterly clear about what he wants, even subdividing the beats in a subtle but visible way. The full organ can blot out the singers. I have been in a performance where I was close to the longest organ pipes and it obliterated all the sound around me.

Excellent soprano soloists in that final few minutes.

Tempting....very tempting.

Mike

[DarkAngel]

Thanks, terrific, there are some wonderfully resonant bases in the choir at the start of that extract. Bernstein is utterly clear about what he wants, even subdividing the beats in a subtle but visible way. The full organ can blot out the singers. I have been in a performance where I was close to the longest organ pipes and it obliterated all the sound around me.

Excellent soprano soloists in that final few minutes.

Tempting....very tempting.

Yes like angelic voices floating above the frey, quite a beautiful work indeed.

Also keep in mind the 2 DVD set with both symphonies 7 and 8 is only $24 new at Amazon sellers, cheaper than many CD versions of these two symphonies by other conductors (and these Bernstein performances are  not available on any CD)

[jlaurson]

When there is no initial show of hands at the question & answer time, Küppers seems eager to wrap it up. He is preempted by three hands that hastily shoot up. The questions are for Thielemann and include: "What's your relationship with Mahler"? "Why do you ask that?" CT shoots back, moodily. "Uh, oh... professional curiosity?" stumbles the journalist half cowed, half defiant. "Well, I have a troubled relationship with Mahler's music. But then you knew that, which is why you asked, no?" Touché. But what follows changes the mood in the room changes completely. "Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn't exactly accommodate my conducting style; I've not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I'm currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually..." Thielemann thus continues a solid three minutes on his fallibility as a conductor in Mahler, about trying to break habits and improving—a touching, beautifully honest moment.

from: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html

A Mahler Cycle And Uncomfortable Silence: The Munich Philharmonic in 2010/11

[Kaiser]

Hello! I'm pretty new here and certainly new to appreciating Mahler. I have been purchasing a few recordings here and there, quite blindly in fact. But my first introduction was an inherited LP copy of Frtiz Reiner's "Das Lied Von Der Erde". At first I couldn't make heads or tails of it until I listened to it again after returning home from a good friend's wake (not trying to be morbid here, but I found the piece quite comforting strangely enough). I then found a Naxos CD of Mahler's 1st "Titan" Symphony. I took to this piece immediately! I'm sure there are more well-regarded recordings, but this was the first time I felt like I really "got" a Mahler piece. Pretty exciting! I've since scored a CD of Karajan's famous 5th (still working on that one) and tonight I chanced upon a copy of Solti's famous 8th. Listening to that 8th for the first time right now and again I'm enjoying this right away! For some reason I had the impression that Mahler was a difficult composer to get into, but I'm happy to discover this is not really true. I've been reading through this thread a bit - very interesting observations and reflections here. I don't exactly have anything profound to add except that I appreciate all the input here and look forward to reading more from the Mahler "faithful". I also found this site on the internet and have found it helpful for newbies (of which I qualify):

http://www.andante.com/profiles/Mahler/symph1.cfm

Cheers!    --------------- Chris

[Opus106]

Hi, Chris; I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying what you have heard so far of Mahler's works.

For some reason I had the impression that Mahler was a difficult composer to get into, but I'm happy to discover this is not really true.

I can relate to you as I was in a very similar position over a year ago. I downloaded a live performance of Mahler's second -- the Resurrection-- when curiosity got the better of me, and I was immediately in love with sound world on first listening to it. It's a strange and wonderful feeling when that happens, when you know that you have a lot of music, by the same composer and maybe even others from the same time to be explored.