Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[not edward]

Finally I hear someone else notice this too! I can't shake the connection and it distracts me from Mahler's world. I only see a slow pan across the USS Enterprise in my mind.

It reminds me of Castrol GTX. (The older Brits on the forum will know what I mean.)

[EigenUser]

It reminds me of Castrol GTX. (The older Brits on the forum will know what I mean.)

I know what you mean, but not because I'm an older Brit. I just found the old commercial after reading about its use.

[Leo K.]

I have been revisiting the Solti M8 from the 'Originals' reissue.



I always thought this recording was not my taste, but hearing it years later on this edition, it's suddenly fantastic and brilliant! Wow! Perhaps my ears were closed all those years ago, but now Solti has captured my attention!

[Pat B]

I have been revisiting the Solti M8 from the 'Originals' reissue.



I always thought this recording was not my taste, but hearing it years later on this edition, it's suddenly fantastic and brilliant! Wow! Perhaps my ears were closed all those years ago, but now Solti has captured my attention!

Which one did you have before? I recently acquired the "Legends" iteration but have not listened to it yet. There was also a 1990 release, not part of any series.

[EigenUser]

I have a question for Mahler experts (Sarge?) -- about the 6th.

I've been listening to the 6th a lot recently and liking it more and more (oddly, the first time I heard it, it was one of the few things of his I didn't like when I was going through his symphonies last June). The hammer blows -- my score has three. It is an old "Kalmus orchestral library" conductor's score, which means it is likely a reprint of the first Universal Edition edition. Then I read on Wikipedia that there were originally three, but he took one out. Then I read somewhere else that there were originally as many as five! Has anyone heard about that before?

It seems that most recordings use only two, but are there any that have three?

It's funny, because I got my score used and it was clearly used in a performance because the conductor wrote markings and cues all over in colored pencil. For the first two hammer blows, he drew a little stick-figure symbol of a hammer over the note. On the third, he didn't.

[Artem]

I have the 6th with Antonio Pappano, which I quite like, and true, there're two strikes.

[Pat B]

It seems that most recordings use only two, but are there any that have three?

There are several. I believe the list includes: Solti, Rattle (Birmingham), Zander, Bernstein (Vienna), Segerstam, and probably others.

Among those I have heard Solti and Rattle. I preferred Rattle as an overall performance (not necessarily for the hammer blows). But I've only listened to the Solti once.

[Jay F]

Lenny B goes for three, twice: http://www.fugato.com/pickett/mahler6-4.shtml

[ritter]

If it's of any use, there's a thread in the Spanish-language Mahler forum (of which I am a member) which makes a partial listing of Mahler Sixth recordings, stating whether there's a re-exposition of the theme in the first movement or not ("c/r" or "s/r"), whether the order of the central movements is scherzo-andante or viceversa ("S/A" or "A/S"),  and whether there are two hammer blows ("2M") or three ("3M") in the finale. The best summary is this post:

Adler: s/r, A/S, 3M
Mitropoulos (Colonia): s/r, S/A, ¿? (*)
Leinsdorf: s/r, S/A, 2M
Bernstein (Sony): c/r, S/A, 3M
Horenstein (Bournemouth): c/r, S/A, 2M
Donhányi: c/r, S/A, 2M
Barbirolli (BPO): s/r, A/S, 3M
Barbirolli (NPO): s/r, A/S, 2M
Szell: s/r, S/A, 2M
Solti (Chicago): c/r, S/A, 3M
Abbado (WPO): c/r, S/A, 2M
Bernstein (DVD): c/r, S/A, 3M
Abravanel: s/r, S/A, 2M
Kondrashin: s/r, S/A, 2M
Farberman (LSO): c/r, A/S (**), 3M
Neumann (Checa): c/r, S/A, 2M
Maazel: c/r, S/A, 2M
Inbal (Frankfurt): c/r, S/A, 2M
Leinsdorf (1984): s/r, S/A, 2M
Bernstein (DG): c/r, S/A, 3M
Haitink (Mahlerfeest): c/r, S/A, 2M
Rattle (BSO): c/r, A/S, 3M
De Waart: c/r, S/A, 2M
Sinopoli (Stuttgart): c/r, S/A, 2M
Boulez: c/r, S/A, 2M
Bertini (Tokio): c/r, S/A, 2M
Segerstam: c/r, S/A, 3M
Ashkenazy: c/r, S/A, 2M
Herbig: s/r, S/A, 2M
Jansons (LSO): c/r, A/S, 2M
Eschenbach: c/r, S/A, 2M
Gergiev: c/r, A/S, 2M

http://gustav-mahler.foroactivo.com.es/t101p20-quienes-se-animan-al-tercer-golpe-de-martillo?highlight=martillo

[Sergeant Rock]

Then I read somewhere else that there were originally as many as five! Has anyone heard about that before?

Originally there were five hammer blows (marked with a blue pencil in the autograph). Two were in the first movement (bar 9 and bar 530). They were crossed out and not included in the first edition. The final hammer blow (the third in the last movement) was omitted by Mahler in the second edition.

Sarge

[Leo K.]

Which one did you have before? I recently acquired the "Legends" iteration but have not listened to it yet. There was also a 1990 release, not part of any series.

I have the 1990 release, which I'm listening to again to compare. I find it sounds excellent, so I suppose the performance itself won me over finally

[EigenUser]

This is all outstanding information. Thanks! I'm interested in hearing some of the variations.

[André]

The Benjamin Zander version (Telarc, Philharmonia Orchestra) is a 3-disc set in which the first two are of the symphony per se (with exposition repeat and 3 hammerblows in IV). The 3rd disc is an 80 minute lecture of all the interesting points of the score and its variants (repeat, order of the movemnts and number of hammerblows). It is not only quite convincing, but a magnificent interpretation, execution and recording of the worc. I recommend it highly.

[Ken B]

This is all outstanding information. Thanks! I'm interested in hearing some of the variations.

Well, you know what to do then!

I have no clear recollection of the number of thwacks in the recordings I know. It isn't really an important part of the performance to me I guess. It's such a complex (and long) piece that details are less interesting than the general approach. Fast, slow, gushy, restrained, lyrical.

Thanks, sounds interesting.
The Benjamin Zander version (Telarc, Philharmonia Orchestra) is a 3-disc set in which the first two are of the symphony per se (with exposition repeat and 3 hammerblows in IV). The 3rd disc is an 80 minute lecture of all the interesting points of the score and its variants (repeat, order of the movemnts and number of hammerblows). It is not only quite convincing, but a magnificent interprétation, execution and recording of the worc. I recommend it highly.

[brunumb]

This should be of interest concerning the hammer blows and much else in Mahler's 6th:

Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony
by Jeffrey Gantz

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm

[jlaurson]

This should be of interest concerning the hammer blows and much else in Mahler's 6th:

Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony
by Jeffrey Gantz

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm

How old is that article??

Incidentally, Mariss Jansons has reverted back to Scherzo-Andante (in his only ever riveting performance which I HOPE has been preserved on record, because it would blow his lame-duck M6s with the RCO and LSO so out of the water...!), and allegedly based on "new information". I tend to think that he received some old information, actually, and thought it was new... and that the scholarly consensus remains the same: "conceptually there is probably no case to be made against Andante-Scherzo", and musically it very much depends on the performance (Ivan Fischer and David Zinman can make excellent cases for A-S, live... nearly convinced Riccardo Chailly to do so, also [I've tried, to the laughably modest extent of my abilities, to discourage that]... but dramatically should be bloody obvious that Scherzo-Andante is hugely preferable.

...The Andante was pure gorgeousness, liquid and untroubled (but of course askew) as if nothing had happened: A pastoral lie, and what a beautiful lie at that! Played by the orchestra to smooth perfection, seamless and soothing, we don't... we never question that lie for as long as the movement lasts. "Of course you won't die." We cling to that. Dum spiro spero. But why the sudden unrest? Why the palpitations? The music knows it is too early to resist... fate leaves us a comforting lack of choice here, and rage is futile. Mahler gently closes your eyes for a little longer and lets you float on an all-encompassing wave of music until the poor soul gets dropped at the foot of the last movement, where neither dreaming nor denial can carry the load of life any further...

[ritter]

I can't find the complete filmed interview now, but in a series devoted by Universal Edition to conductors talking about Mahler's music, Pierre Boulez had this to say about the third hammer blow:

Q: He deleted the third hammer blow in the 6th.

Boulez: Yes, that I can understand, because it does not fit at all. That's not the same context. With the first two Hammerschläge you have a main melody playing with the trumpet, both times the same melody playing. The third time it's the introduction which comes back, and the hammer has nothing to do with this reprise, this repetition, from the very beginning. And so there is no hammer there.

Q: It has nothing to do with reasons outside the music?

Boulez: No, I don't believe anything else. Well maybe he wanted a third one, but finally he said that's absolutely illogical to have a third one in this context, simply that. And what Alma, after that, had written about the drama; I don't believe a word of it. She invented quite a lot of things.

Q: So we should protect Mahler from these legends?

Boulez: From Alma, yes, but it's too late now [laughs]...

Transcript from this page: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/7091480/

Excerpts of intreview here: http://mahler.universaledition.com/pierre-boulez-on-mahler/

Regards,

[EigenUser]

I can't find the complete filmed interview now, but in a series devoted by Universal Edition to conductors talking about Mahler's music, Pierre Boulez had this to say about the third hammer blow:

Transcript from this page: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/7091480/

Excerpts of intreview here: http://mahler.universaledition.com/pierre-boulez-on-mahler/

Regards,

I learned very quickly not to believe Alma Mahler. Didn't she go back and edit her husband's journals after he died?

[ritter]

I learned very quickly not to believe Alma Mahler. Didn't she go back and edit her husband's journals after he died?

AFAIK, there's no record of Mahler keeping a diary. Had there been one, Alma would  have probably tinkered with it anyway...

[Wanderer]

AFAIK, there's no record of Mahler keeping a diary. Had there been one, Alma would  have probably tinkered with it anyway...

...and then cheated on it with another diary.