Topic: Recordings for lute and related instruments

[FideLeo]

OK people, I decided to get myself Dowland's lute works.

The choice seems to be between Paul O'dette on Harmonia Mundi and Nigel North on Naxos (though his series is not yet complete). Price will be roughly the same.
Any opinions or experiences to share on those?

There is one difference anyway: one will have to wait for Mr North to complete his series! 
I have the O'Dette in single discs..(legacy of my time being a BMG club member) never
managed to listen to them all.  Is that a meaningful response to your question?  Maybe it's
a matter of how much Dowland one can take before feeling imposssibly "down" him- or herself.
Needless to say, it was quite fast for me.  2 discs worth of tears, frowns, sighs, or dying
(even done ever so quietly) was enough.

[Que]

Is that a meaningful response to your question? 

Yes, indeed it is. Quite telling I think, although we don't know for sure if Dowland was to blame, or O'dette? Maybe one volume of Nigel North is a wise course of action to take - I liked him in Bach.

Q

[FideLeo]

Maybe one volume of Nigel North is a wise course of action to take - I liked him in Bach.

I would suggest so.  If, after the 2 Naxos discs you'd still be "dying" to hear more Dowland,
I suspect either choice would be fine!

[Shrunk]

OK people, I decided to get myself Dowland's lute works.

The choice seems to be between Paul O'dette on Harmonia Mundi and Nigel North on Naxos (though his series is not yet complete). Price will be roughly the same.
Any opinions or experiences to share on those?

Just to confuse matters further, there's also Jakob Lindberg on BIS.

[Que]

Interesting post:

There is a Vihuela literature from the earlier

El Maestro by Luis de Milán (1536)
Los seys libros del Delphin by Luis de Narváez (1538)
Tres Libros de Música by Alonso Mudarra (1546)
Silva de sirenas by Enríquez de Valderrábano (1547)
Libro de música de Vihuela by Diego Pisador (1552)
Orphénica Lyra by Miguel de Fuenllana (1554)
El Parnasso by Estevan Daça (1576).

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iYOFviCC7DA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/iYOFviCC7DA</a>

[Que]

And another:

Co-incidentally La Cancion del Emperador (actually a rearrangement of Mille Regrets by Josquin) is a piece I'm polishing up myself at the moment. I love the Vihuela repertoire and am really fortunate in that I have access to the Pujol editions of the Milan (both volumes) and the Narvaez, among others. Pisador, however, I find a bit dry and academic.

Anyone who wants to play through some of these can probably get them online for free or the best are available in a Pujol edited anthology "Hispanae Citharae Ars Viva" that includes Pisador-Pavana muy llana, Villanesca; Valderrabano-Soneto I & II; Milan-Fantasia del quarto tono, Fantasia de consonancias y redobles; Mudarra-Gallarda, Diferencias Conde Claros, Fantsia de Ludovico; Narvaez-Cancion del Emperador, Baxa de contrapunto, Diferencias Guardame las Vacas, and Tres diferencias por otra parte.

As for recordings, well Hopkinson Smith has done quite a lot of vihuela repertoire and is really the benchmark but I'll always have a soft spot for this

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Upd8HJxYeb0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Upd8HJxYeb0</a>

Superb!!

[Antoine Marchand]

Dowland - Fancyes, Dreams and Spirits. Lute Music 1
Nigel North, lute
Recording: 23-26 July 2004
Naxos

Extraordinary performances by North, well captured on Naxos. Currently Naxos has joined all four volumes (Dowland - Complete Lute Music) in one box at very convenient price.

[SonicMan46]

   

Q - would be curious about your impressions of that series?  I have just 2 discs of Weiss's lute works, Vol. 1 on Naxos w/ Barto, who is now up to Vol. 10 (how much did Weiss compose for this instrument?), and Lindberg on an historic lute (which I may have put more info in the 'old instrument' thread?) - pics inserted above.

Maybe a 'box set' should be next?  Dave 

[The new erato]

(how much did Weiss compose for this instrument?),

His sonatas is numbered into the sixties IIRC.

[SonicMan46]

His sonatas is numbered into the sixties IIRC.

Erato - thanks!  I was exploring more on Weiss & Lindberg, and have just added the disc below to my Amazon cart, i.e. a Vol. 2 w/ Lindberg on a different Baroque lute - review on Arkiv Music HERE; according to that story more than 100 solo lute works and 90+ movements survive, so much is likely lost or yet to be found?

In a WIKI article, the paragraph below is quoted - this guy was kind of a 'super star' of his times! Dave 

Weiss was one of the most important and most prolific composers of lute music in history and one of the best-known and most technically accomplished lutenists of his day. He wrote around 600 pieces for lute, most of them grouped into 'sonatas' (not to be confused with the later classical sonata, based on sonata form) or suites, which consist mostly of baroque dance pieces. Weiss also wrote chamber pieces and concertos, but only the solo parts have survived.

[Que]

   

Q - would be curious about your impressions of that series?  I have just 2 discs of Weiss's lute works, Vol. 1 on Naxos w/ Barto, who is now up to Vol. 10 (how much did Weiss compose for this instrument?), and Lindberg on an historic lute (which I may have put more info in the 'old instrument' thread?) - pics inserted above.

Maybe a 'box set' should be next?  Dave 

Good question indeed, Dave!

That's why I picked up this issue by Michel Cardin. I was intrigued by the comments by Mark Sealy on ClassicalNet, in whom Cardin's complete series of Weiss' lute works (12 discs) has found a strong advocate. (More) BTW a nice discography of Weiss' Dresden manuscripts HERE.

Anyway, I have also one volume of Roberto Barto's series on Naxos, and although the works on the two discs are not the same, comparing the two approaches provided much interesting listening and revealed quite some differences.

Let me state first that it took a while before a preference emerged - these are two very good lutenists. Cardin is the more deliberate player, Barto is swifter and more flowing making a grasp on Weiss' musical architecture easier on first listening. Cardin is on the other hand is more articulate. The Naxos recording of Barto is also "easier on the ear" with a more mellow soundsstage at some distance of the instrument while the SNE recording of Cardin is up-close to the instrument with extra sonic "gruff" and "gut-effect" as a result. In the end I found Cardin's more probing and expressive approach more satisfying than Barto's admittedly very elegant playing that glosses just a bit over the music IMO.

Perhaps not the most convenient result, I might add... The Cardin series being OOP en fetching high prices, that were considerably higher than Naxos to begin with. Maybe buying directly from Michel cardin's website is an option.

Although... a wondefull OOP series on a tiny label, doesn't that sound like a perfect deal for Brilliant Classics?
Harry, you might want to tip the people at Brilliant ... and do us all a big favour.

Q

[Que]

Dowland - Fancyes, Dreams and Spirits. Lute Music 1
Nigel North, lute
Recording: 23-26 July 2004
Naxos

Extraordinary performances by North, well captured on Naxos. Currently Naxos has joined all four volumes (Dowland - Complete Lute Music) in one box at very convenient price.

I'm seriously considering that, after I found the recordings by Lindberg (BIS, now Brilliant Classics) slightly disappointing. To my taste Lindberg's approach is too sober, too barren, though beautifully proportioned. I missed a bit of imagination, poetry. The remaining question for me is: is Paul O'Dette series still worth considering, or is he too far at the other end of the spectrum and too melodramatic, as Masolino seems to suggest in earlier comments on this thread?

Q

[SonicMan46]

Q - thanks for your comments on the Weiss recordings by Cardin and the links - 12 volumes!  WOW - could not find a pricing for these discs on the web site, but a BOX SET is certainly a need for us lute fans!

Concerning Dowland, I currently own the Lindberg box on Brilliant and also 3 of O'Dette's discs on H. Mundi (these were purchased cheap years ago from the BMG club); tonight, I'm doing a brief listening comparison of the two performers.  First, I agree that Lindberg despite his excellent playing & fingering, just does not show that much emotion in the music; now, this music is often played in such a fashion but a little more FLASH would appeal to me!  I love Paul O'Dette and own a variety of discs by him - now there is a 5-CD box set offered by H. Mundi that is a little too pricey - his playing is wonderful and offers more emotion & dynamics vs. Lindberg; however, there are some extraneous noises that I've noticed from the beginning (some have commented that it's his breathing but the culprit is likely close miking of his finger movement on the strings).

So, bottom line is that I'm ordering the Nigel North set for a listen since the price is right!  Plus, I do own other recordings of North and have little doubt that the Dowland discs will be excellent - probably will be 'dumping' some Dowland in the near future!

Thanks for getting this thread going again - Dave 

[SonicMan46]

Below is a post that I just left in the 'listening thread' - these performances certainly sound different, but is that related to the performers/instruments, the music (and century of composition), and/or sound production - there seem to be so many considerations?

But one issue that has intrigued me is Lindberg's performances in the Dowland vs. Weiss works - I really enjoy him in the latter, but not as much in the Dowland works (may be the instrument or other issues?) - but a more important consideration might be the 'era' of composition, i.e. is English lute music (vs. latter German compositions) different regarding their interpretation?  Just some thoughts to consider that came to my mind this afternoon? 

Listening to a lot of lute music this afternoon & evening - Weiss & Dowland, as performed by Lindberg & O'Dette:

   

[Antoine Marchand]

I'm seriously considering that, after I found the recordings by Lindberg (BIS, now Brilliant Classics) slightly disappointing. To my taste Lindberg's approach is too sober, too barren, though beautifully proportioned. I missed a bit of imagination, poetry. The remaining question for me is: is Paul O'Dette series still worth considering, or is he too far at the other end of the spectrum and too melodramatic, as Masolino seems to suggest in earlier comments on this thread?

Hi, Q.

IMO North is not too different to Lindberg. Both of them are outstanding in fields like refinement, sobriety and well-proportioned performances, with measured, elegant doses of imagination (although probably North is a bit more “alert”)… In short, I would say that Lindberg and North are more similar between them than compared with O'Dette. But for the price of the North’s set… come-on, Q! 

Besides, North offers some nice instruments and his performances has been rather closely miked by Naxos -without strange noises-, which it is a difference with the opener and more variable and natural soundstage on Bis.

P.S.: I have been listening to these North’s performances and I would wish to stress one point on the sound quality of this set. As I said previously this set is very closely miked and this decision has some artistic consequences because we heard principally the “immediate sound” of the lute, but not enough its delicate sound dying in the room, declining in the space. This one could be a problem for some listeners. 

[Antoine Marchand]

QUESTIONS FOR NIGEL NORTH

 

[SonicMan46]

Continues to sound impressive!
Forget about Lindberg (BIS/ Brilliant) IMO.

Hello Q - I bought the Lindberg box first; then picked up North - prefer North after a couple of comparative listenings - also, decided to 'cull out' my O'Dette discs of the same music (just had 3 picked up at bargain prices) - bottom line just beautiful lute music!  Dave 

[Que]

Hello Q - I bought the Lindberg box first; then picked up North - prefer North after a couple of comparative listenings - also, decided to 'cull out' my O'Dette discs of the same music (just had 3 picked up at bargain prices) - bottom line just beautiful lute music!  Dave 

Hi Dave, I haven't heard O'Dette other than in samples but Nigel North's Dowland is mighty fine indeed: elegant, articulated, emotionally expressive and varied. Lindberg's rather stoic interpretation pales in comparison. From what I've gathered by just sampling O'Dette seems a bit the "Jordi Savall" of the lute with a more theatrical style and plenty of aplomb(?)

Q

[canninator]

So much love for Nigel! Where the North set fails for me compared to Lindberg is in tempo. It is important to bear in mind that everything in the solo Dowland lute reperoire, bar Preludium and the fantiasias, are mostly dances and Lindberg performs them as such.

You can do your own side by side comparison using Lachrimae as a great example (Lindberg Brilliant disc 1, track 14; North Naxos disc 2, track 1). A justly famous piece dripping in melancholy and pathos, ripe for emoting and this is what North sets out to do BUT it is a pavan and must have a regular pulse to be played properly. Listen and compare the musical pulse in the Lindberg versus the North. Lindberg is regular, North is a bit wayward. For me, therefore, Lindberg will always come out on top if only by virtue of the more intellectual approach he brings to the music.

[SonicMan46]

The music is very beautiful, touching & endearing. O'Dette's set is incomparable, I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Well, I've loved all 3 performers of this Dowland music that I have owned - just have 'so much' space for storage and did not have the complete O'Dette set; I can't imagine one being disappointed w/ any of these lutenists - they are all superb!  But, two sets of the 'complete' works should serve me well - like picking a 'mate', choices must be made -