Bruckner's 9th Symphony

[Que]

^ Um, was that an April Fool's review?

O boy, and they left it on the site? Thought the review was a bit weird..

Anyway, there are I believe at least two different recordings by Wand, aren't there?

Q

[Holden]

Mravinsky's live 9th was the first version I heard, so this very raw, intense version remains a favourite. It's available under several labels.

I'd also like to recommend the overlooked Wakasugi ( 若杉弘 ) 9th (Arte Nova). It has a very refined, Old World feel, and terrific sound, very warm and rich.


BTW, Karajan's cycle has been issued on SHM-CD (Super High Material CD) in Japan. I don't know if improved sound is genuine or placebo: http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2667312

I've got this on Russian Legacy. It certainly is very raw, is it the same one? Recorded 1980.

[Drasko]

Anyway, there are I believe at least two different recordings by Wand, aren't there?

Youhavetobekidding, there are at least 5 on RCA alone - Koln studio, NDR studio, NDR Lubeck, Berlin, live NDR in Japan then two on Profil - Munich and Sttutgart and then DVDs......

I've got this on Russian Legacy. It certainly is very raw, is it the same one? Recorded 1980.

One and the same, there is only one recording, though it has been misdated on some labels (Icone)

[val]

Giulini with the VPO is extraordinary. Slow but intense, with a sublime colour. The 3rd movement never sound with such dispair, in special in the end of the development.

Furtwängler with the BPO (1944) is very dramatic, with probably the best 2nd movement. The end of the 3rd movement has a very touching and tender poetry.

Jochum with the BPO and van Beinum with the Concertgebow are good but very far from Giulini and Furtwängler. Jochum is too lyrical and Beinum, with an exceptional articulation, seems too dramatic and the 3rd movement has not the human dimension that it requires.

The old version of Horenstein with a mediocre orchestra, is interesting because of the very fast tempo. But spirituality it seems very poor.

[Que]

Youhavetobekidding, there are at least 5 on RCA alone - Koln studio, NDR studio, NDR Lubeck, Berlin, live NDR in Japan then two on Profil - Munich and Sttutgart and then DVDs......

So which one should I try? 

Q

[Renfield]

So which one should I try? 

Q

I seem to recall having the NDR and Berlin ones, but I've never properly sat down and listened to them.

Same with all of my Wand recordings - I don't know why!

Will see about amending that.

[Drasko]

So which one should I try? 

Q

No idea, really. I have the Berlin one (haven't listened to it in years, though) and am sure I heard few more but little recollection. Ask M, he is far better versed in Wand recordings than I am.
If I were to make totally wild recommendation I'd say one of the non-Lubeck NDRs would probably be the right place to start.

[vandermolen]

Which one? Because there are four, as I understood from this review.
And... just how slow is Wand?

EDIT: I was fooled long after the 1st of april..

Q

This is the one I have. Don't understand April Fools reference:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-5-9/dp/B00005I9SC/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208286912&sr=1-4

[Varg]

Once again, mister Celibidache is completely ignored...

[BorisG]

Once again, mister Celibidache is completely ignored...

And rightly so, for Giulini seems downright Furtish next to.

[M forever]

Which one?

It's hard to keep an overview over just how many Wand recordings there are, there is one with the BP, one with the NDR, another with the NDR from the cathedral in Luebeck, all of the above live, a live video from Luebeck (different location), and there is one of Haennsler with the RSO Stuttgart or MP (forgot which orchestra) - or is it the SOBR? Anyway, these are all very good, but the most interesting probably still remains his first one with the Koelner RSO (WDR) which, despite slightly rough orchestral playing (or also because of that?) and slightly glassy, not very "warm" sound (or also because of that?), is one of the most "modern sounding", "radical", interesting, "exciting", and insightful recordings of this piece. The beginning never has sounded as "misterioso" in any other recording that I have heard, and few recordings bring out the radical nature of Bruckner's symphonic writing as clearly, but at the same time, it is also an emotionally intense and very expressive reading.

In addition to that, the Giulini/WP recording is about as good as it gets in every respect, a on a level with his incredible recording of the 8th, with phenomenal orchestral playing (the trombones in the scherzo are simply apocalyptical, but that is only one of many musical and orchestral highlights) and good sound. Musically, there are no open questions at all. It all makes sense.

The Kubelik recording also has pretty much all these qualities in its own way, the sound is astonishingly good.

[Grazioso]

The most interesting and moving version I've heard of late is Bernstein/VPO. The "Late Lenny" treatment will undoubtedly be controversial for some listeners, but for me it was an intense and gripping experience and made me hear the piece afresh. It sounds truly monolothic and ominous in his hands.

[not edward]

Anyway, these are all very good, but the most interesting probably still remains his first one with the Koelner RSO (WDR) which, despite slightly rough orchestral playing (or also because of that?) and slightly glassy, not very "warm" sound (or also because of that?), is one of the most "modern sounding", "radical", interesting, "exciting", and insightful recordings of this piece. The beginning never has sounded as "misterioso" in any other recording that I have heard, and few recordings bring out the radical nature of Bruckner's symphonic writing as clearly, but at the same time, it is also an emotionally intense and very expressive reading.

Thanks for this comment: it makes me think this should be my next Bruckner 9. Is this the recording that's included in the Wand cycle on RCA, and if so is the rest of the cycle similarly illuminating?

[M forever]

The most interesting and moving version I've heard of late is Bernstein/VPO. The "Late Lenny" treatment will undoubtedly be controversial for some listeners, but for me it was an intense and gripping experience and made me hear the piece afresh. It sounds truly monolothic and ominous in his hands.

I like that version, too, it is a very personal and very individual performance, like so much of LB's late work, or actually, most of what he did thoughout the decades, although his very idiosyncratic and sometimes really over the top performances from his last decade are particularly unique in some of the extremes he went to in his later years. But I also don't think the performance holds together quite as well as some others, notably Giulini's with the same orchestra which is also a little on the slow side, but not quite *that* slow. It is very impressive to hear how the WP manage to fill out LB's slow tempi with dense music and sound, but it really is too slow in some places (esp. the 2nd movement) and the musical line sags here and there, esp. in the 2nd theme of the first movement where there are some pretty random and also slightly awkward tempo shifts. Still, a very interesting and rewarding performance - BTW, IIRC, the last time LB conducted the WP...
And a very strong contrast to his earlier recording with the NYP from around 1970 or so - that one is actually pretty bad, the NYP brass sounds like a high school band sightreading the piece...

Thanks for this comment: it makes me think this should be my next Bruckner 9. Is this the recording that's included in the Wand cycle on RCA, and if so is the rest of the cycle similarly illuminating?

Yes and yes. That whole cycle is available in a green box from RCA which is unfortunately a little bit too aggressively "remastered" though. What they did there is apply some fairly aggressive denoising which wasn't really necessary since there isn't that much tape hiss on the original recordings anyway - but the denoising creates some very slight, but audible digital artifacts. Some people may not hear that, but it bothers me a lot, so I am actually thinking about finding the earlier edition of these recordings (which was white with a blue fringe and pics of GW on the covers) or collecting the individual discs.

[samtrb]

try giulini/chicago on emi.  you'll hear more details.

that was my first recording of that symphony and i still like it after acquiring the Jochum Boxset

[eyeresist]

Yes and yes. That whole cycle is available in a green box from RCA which is unfortunately a little bit too aggressively "remastered" though. What they did there is apply some fairly aggressive denoising which wasn't really necessary since there isn't that much tape hiss on the original recordings anyway - but the denoising creates some very slight, but audible digital artifacts. Some people may not hear that, but it bothers me a lot, so I am actually thinking about finding the earlier edition of these recordings (which was white with a blue fringe and pics of GW on the covers) or collecting the individual discs.

Very helpful, M. I have an early 8th of Wand's, a radio performance I believe, with the "Cologne Gurzenich Orchestra", with noise reduction so heavy I can't really recommend it. The performance is very good and much more expressive than his later style. So I've been wondering about his early complete set - reviews tend to be mixed, but unspecific in their criticisms. Glad to know there's an earlier edition to look out for.

[M forever]

Very helpful, M. I have an early 8th of Wand's, a radio performance I believe, with the "Cologne Gurzenich Orchestra", with noise reduction so heavy I can't really recommend it. The performance is very good and much more expressive than his later style. So I've been wondering about his early complete set - reviews tend to be mixed, but unspecific in their criticisms. Glad to know there's an earlier edition to look out for.

I doubt what you are encountering there is actually noise reduction in the sense I was talking about - it is probably just dynamic compression introduced by the broadcast medium (and possibly other distortions).
The Gürzenich-Orchester is the orchestra of the opera in Cologne (Gürzenich is the name of the hall they play their symphony concerts in) where Wand was MD for over three decades. I would like to hear that, as many of the early recordings he made with that orchestra in the 50s and 60s are already extraordinarily good. But I also doubt it is that much "more expressive" than his later performances as Wand was a highly expressive conductor in his later years, too, as I had the priviledge of witnessing many times in the 80s and 90s in live concerts - he was one of those musicians who just got better and better and better, not because he had come up with some BS concept that sledgehammered people into believing he had some "special insights" (e.g., Celibidache, the pseudo-zen guru for idiots), but simply because he kept re-reflecting and refining his interpretations constantly and on the basis of a very thorough understanding of the inner structure of the music.

[Renfield]

he was one of those musicians who just got better and better and better, not because he had come up with some BS concept that sledgehammered people into believing he had some "special insights" (e.g., Celibidache, the pseudo-zen guru for idiots), but simply because he kept re-reflecting and refining his interpretations constantly and on the basis of a very thorough understanding of the inner structure of the music.

Ouch. You know, I'd actually describe Celibidache's achievements in exactly the same words you use for Wand, if admittedly with a more self-important "wrapping". Anyhow, that's going off-topic.

[Bonehelm]

Ouch. You know, I'd actually describe Celibidache's achievements in exactly the same words you use for Wand, if admittedly with a more self-important "wrapping". Anyhow, that's going off-topic.

I know, and how the hell is Celi a "pseudo-zen guru"? He IS a zen practicer.

[Renfield]

I know, and how the hell is Celi a "pseudo-zen guru"? He IS a zen practicer.

He means it with regard to Celibidache applying all sorts of slightly "kooky" theories to his music-making, or at least justifying his creative decisions with said theories. In my view, though, the actual music he made was very, very good.

The kooky theories were more of an epiphenomenon, if you will. Pun intended.