Defective Box set? Please help?

[George]

I bought a new boxed set last week. It is Serkin and Kubelik playing the 5 Beethoven Piano Concertos and the Choral Fantasy on the Orfeo Label live from 1977. Teh set is labelled "remastered" and was put out in 2005.

I got it home and brought the first CD with me to work yesterday. However, the recording level is very low. So low that I had to crank my walkman volume up all the way and even then it wasn't normal volume compared to every other classical CD that I have.

I got home and looked at a waveform, importing it to audacity and it looked miniscule. The maximum levels didn't even reach the halfway point (.5db) on the display.

So I think that this is a defective set. What do you think?

Here's a 60 second WAV sample of the original and then the same thing amplified to 1db (amplified without clipping.)

Original Sample:
http://www.mediafire.com/?cjnztou2hg2

Amplified Sample:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uhyaugwaui9


PLEASE guys, give this a listen and tell me what you think?

[head-case]

If you are suggesting a manufacturing defect is causing volume to be low that is not possible.  If data is not being read properly you will get drop outs, a static sound, or other forms of distortion.  If the average volume is low, that is a decision made when the disc was mastered.  In fact, there is a trend in pop music to make discs "louder" by clipping the transients and making the average volume higher, which results in loss of quality.

[George]

If you are suggesting a manufacturing defect is causing volume to be low that is not possible.  If data is not being read properly you will get drop outs, a static sound, or other forms of distortion.  If the average volume is low, that is a decision made when the disc was mastered.  In fact, there is a trend in pop music to make discs "louder" by clipping the transients and making the average volume higher, which results in loss of quality.

Yes, I have been increasingly disgusted with the state of most modern masterings. They are way too loud IMO. The box above, however, has the reverse problem. In fact, I have never seen a recording that quiet. I have some very early CDs that are not as loud as their remasters, but this one is quieter than those. And this is a 2005 Remaster.

BTW, I just called the store and explained the situation. The manager thinks that any other copy will have the same mastering and thus the same volume level. They said I can return it if I want and get store credit.

[MN Dave]

Yeah, modern pop producers use compressed sound now so that songs sound good on tiny computer speakers and ear buds. There are no dynamics; everything's the same volume.

Sorry about your box, George. I know you were looking forward to it.

[Bunny]

If you are suggesting a manufacturing defect is causing volume to be low that is not possible.  If data is not being read properly you will get drop outs, a static sound, or other forms of distortion.  If the average volume is low, that is a decision made when the disc was mastered.  In fact, there is a trend in pop music to make discs "louder" by clipping the transients and making the average volume higher, which results in loss of quality.

Sometimes there are defects that occur in the manufacturing that might result in the volume levels being too low.


Do all the cds in the set sound similarly?  I once purchased a box-set of the Beethoven String Quartets where the pianissimos were inaudible, and when the volume was bumped up to give them the appropriate sound level, the regular passages sounded uncomfortably loud and the fortes were unbearable!  I exchanged it for another set without problems.  Return the set for exchange and see if the new set has the same problem.  If they all are recorded at inaudible levels, then return the set for refund.  Sometimes when they are manufacturing the cds, errors or "duds" occur.

[George]

Yeah, modern pop producers use compressed sound now so that songs sound good on tiny computer speakers and ear buds. There are no dynamics; everything's the same volume.

Unfortunately, what sounds good to todays engineers (including the new R.E.M. album) sound superloud and in your face to me on my walkman or home stereo.  

[Que]

Defective - in the sense that your individual CD's would be "off" - doesn't seem to me to be the case.
But you're right that the volume level is very low - but doesn't cranking up the volume help?
It does for me, though this is a typical live recording with (a) rather distant microphone(s) and the absense of "highlighting" solos etc.

Try comparing with the sound samples at jpc HERE.

Q

[George]

Sometimes there are defects that occur in the manufacturing that might result in the volume levels being too low.

That's what I originally thought, but the volume level is actually determined by the mastering. The mastering is the same no matter how many CDs are pressed, so all the CDs will have the same issue.

Do all the cds in the set sound similarly?  I once purchased a box-set of the Beethoven String Quartets where the pianissimos were inaudible, and when the volume was bumped up to give them the appropriate sound level, the regular passages sounded uncomfortably loud and the fortes were unbearable!  I exchanged it for another set without problems.  Return the set for exchange and see if the new set has the same problem.  If they all are recorded at inaudible levels, then return the set for refund.  Sometimes when they are manufacturing the cds, errors or "duds" occur.

Yes, they are all similarly quiet, not inaudible, but very quiet. Did you (or anyone else compare the samples?)    

If you did, how does the second one sound to you?

[George]

Defective - in the sense that your individual CD's would be "off" - doesn't seem to me to be the case.
But you're right that the volume level is very low - but doesn't cranking up the volume help?
It does for me, though this is a typical live recording with (a) rather distant microphone(s) and the absense of "highlighting" solos etc.

Try comparing with the sound samples at jpc HERE.

Q

Yeah, that one sounds damn loud. Now I am really confused. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Yeah, that one sounds damn loud. Now I am really confused. 

I downloaded the first clip and just compared it to JPC. Your clip is marginally softer, not an extreme difference. I can get a good volume out of your clip with my computer speakers turned up about a third. At two thirds it's as loud as I would want it. If it were my CD I wouldn't think anything wrong. I can't explain why you're hearing the music so differently as to be worrisome.

Sarge

[Bunny]

That's what I originally thought, but the volume level is actually determined by the mastering. The mastering is the same no matter how many CDs are pressed, so all the CDs will have the same issue.

Yes, they are all similarly quiet, not inaudible, but very quiet. Did you (or anyone else compare the samples?)     

If you did, how does the second one sound to you?

I've just finished listening to the samples; there's not much difference between the two, to my ears.  The first didn't sound overly soft to my ears, although there were differences in sound when the orchestra was playing alone from when the orchestra and piano were playing together, and when the piano was playing alone.  Similar problems exist on other recordings from that period -- the DG recording of the Pollini/Böhm Emperor Cto comes to mind.

I also got the ClassicsToday review (by Jed Distler) and he gives the set a 9 for sound quality?!  To my ears, your clips sound like a 5 or 6 at most.  Distler writes, "The slightly distant yet attractively robust engineering conveys a cogent sense of concert hall-realism, and not just to the benefit of Rafael Kubelik's superb Bavarian musicians. It also reveals Serkin's elusive, difficult-to-record sonority in more flattering, three-dimensional light than the gaunt, often monochrome impression one gleans from his Columbia Masterworks sessions."  Perhaps you do have a dud!  Try and exchange it and see if another set sounds better.

[George]

I downloaded the first clip and just compared it to JPC. Your clip is marginally softer, not an extreme difference. I can get a good volume out of your clip with my computer speakers turned up about a third. At two thirds it's as loud as I would want it. If it were my CD I wouldn't think anything wrong. I can't explain why you're hearing the music so differently as to be worrisome.

Sarge

On my CD walkman, where I do a lot of my listening on the go, this CD is inaudible at many points.

However, tonight I tried it out on my home stereo and it sounds fine. I have to turn it up louder than probably any CD I own, but it sounds OK. So I just will listen to it at home.

On interesting point is that I burned a CD with the amplified files and the hiss was much more than with the original CD played as loud, but amplified by my stereo.

Thanks to all who replied to this thread.   

[George]

Defective - in the sense that your individual CD's would be "off" - doesn't seem to me to be the case.
But you're right that the volume level is very low - but doesn't cranking up the volume help?
It does for me, though this is a typical live recording with (a) rather distant microphone(s) and the absense of "highlighting" solos etc.

Yes, I never was a fan of this distant miking technique. It's like you're sitting in the back of the auditorium in the cheap seats. 

[Holden]

I have the first 2 PCs of this on the now defunct (I believe) AS Disc label. As I've discussed with George via PM on this recording the sound level is fine but listening now, via my PC, I suspect that the sound was boosted by AS Disc and I can hear the louder orchestral passges clipping giving a rather harsh sound to the orchestra. Funnily enough, the piano sounds fine.

What I'm going to have to do is take this back to my reference - my Marantz CD67 MkII SE CD player via my Sennheiser HD280 Pro phones running through a Behringer MA400 headphone amp. If this is boosted to distortion in any way this will pick it up. Apart from all this, these are excellent performances from Serkin.

[Wanderer]

On my CD walkman, where I do a lot of my listening on the go, this CD is inaudible at many points.

However, tonight I tried it out on my home stereo and it sounds fine.

Crappy equipment can do that to you. Walkmans are not for serious listening. Anyway, I'm glad you sorted things out without having to return the set, I was considering buying it myself, as well. 

[Holden]

George, I've given the CD a good audition and here are my findings

The piano sound is not recessed in any way, in fact it might be a little bit too forward

The orchestral sound 'clips' on loud tutti passages

The piano sound clipped occasionally on ff chords

I thought I detected the odd click reminiscent of an LP but I could be mistaken

Summing up, here is what I believe. Yes, the sound has been boosted but unfortunately to the point where it distorts in the loud passages and gives some harshness and glare inother places. AS Disc was probably one of those 'pirate' Italian CD manufacturers and they may have taken these performances from an LP though I can't find any evidence that this was ever on LP.

So despite your lower sound levels you probably have a very good set sonically. The beautifully reverberant sound of the Herculessaal in Munich would also tend to give the impression of a recessed piano. The forwardness of the piano on my recording would be hard to reproduce from a budget company without access to the master tapes so I guess that this might be an illusion created by the hall acoustics. The Concertegebouw is very similar.

So enjoy

[George]

George, I've given the CD a good audition and here are my findings

The piano sound is not recessed in any way, in fact it might be a little bit too forward

The orchestral sound 'clips' on loud tutti passages

The piano sound clipped occasionally on ff chords

I thought I detected the odd click reminiscent of an LP but I could be mistaken

Summing up, here is what I believe. Yes, the sound has been boosted but unfortunately to the point where it distorts in the loud passages and gives some harshness and glare inother places. AS Disc was probably one of those 'pirate' Italian CD manufacturers and they may have taken these performances from an LP though I can't find any evidence that this was ever on LP.

So despite your lower sound levels you probably have a very good set sonically. The beautifully reverberant sound of the Herculessaal in Munich would also tend to give the impression of a recessed piano. The forwardness of the piano on my recording would be hard to reproduce from a budget company without access to the master tapes so I guess that this might be an illusion created by the hall acoustics. The Concertegebouw is very similar.

So enjoy

I am, actually. In forte tutti passages, mine sounds impressive. In fact, my heart jumped a few times at the range of the surging crescendos. Yes, this one's a keeper.

I have started an appreciation thread for this wonderful pianist. (the first post is a review of the above set):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7284.0.html