The Best and Cheapest Beethoven's Ninth

[Renfield]

Forget the cycle with the RLPO. That is a musically completely mediocre product, a harsh disappointment coming from someone as knowledgeable about the music of that period as Mackerras. Fortunately, he "corrected" himself in his live performances in Edinburgh with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and the Philharmonia, and fortunately, these performances are also available on CD now. They are musically vastly better than the RLPO recordings.

Aha! Thank you for confirming a hunch I had about that RLPO cycle, which I deliberately left on the shelves on more than one occasion. But having the Edinburgh one, and liking it quite a lot, I was somehow wondering if it would be worth buying.

But that probably settles it; or to be more precise, I'll take your word for this one, M.

[MN Dave]

Aha! Thank you for confirming a hunch I had about that RLPO cycle, which I deliberately left on the shelves on more than one occasion. But having the Edinburgh one, and liking it quite a lot, I was somehow wondering if it would be worth buying.

But that probably settles it; or to be more precise, I'll take your word for this one, M.

I don't know. That RLPO Ninth was pretty popular back in the day. Though I assume the more current cycle sounds better. Are the tempos similar between the cycles?

[M forever]

I wouldn't assume that the sound is better just because it is more recent (remember, as the Americans like to say, "if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me"). Some recordings made 40 years ago sound better than some made yesterday.
I have only heard the Edniburgh cycle in mediocre radio broadcast quality (from Operashare), so I can't judge how good the sound is on the CDs. But the broadcasts sounded basically fairly good, they were just too compressed. I haven't compared all the tempi side-by-side, but generally, Mackerras stays fairly close to the metronome markings. The newer cycle is not that different in *conception*, but it is vastly batter in *execution*. The playing of the RLPO is OK but neither particularly stylish nor sonorous nor "idiomatic" (whatever that may mean) nor, and that is the biggest "problem", is it really "eloquent" in the sense of musical rhetorics which is so enormously important in this music. And which Mackerras understands very well. That is why I was so puzzled by this musically flat, nondescript, shallow and inarticulate music making. Not that one always "has" to have "something special to say" but particularly when it comes to this music, it is so overplayed including by a lot of people who don't really have a good understanding of it, if some records the 758th complete Beethoven symphonies cycle, there should be *some* reason for people to have it. With Mackerras RLPO cycle, there is none. But the Edinburgh performances are much better and much more "eloquent" and "interesting".

I'm very much interested in acquiring one of these, so if you like, please do tell more.

Do you already have the Harnoncourt cycle? I see you have been listening to Norrington's more recent recordings from Stuttgart, but have you also heard the earlier ones from London (on "period instruments")?

[MN Dave]

I wouldn't assume that the sound is better just because it is more recent (remember, as the Americans like to say, "if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me"). Some recordings made 40 years ago sound better than some made yesterday.

True. I only meant that some people have complained about the sound on the RLPO cycle.

Thanks for the heads-up, M.

[Brian]

Do you already have the Harnoncourt cycle? I see you have been listening to Norrington's more recent recordings from Stuttgart, but have you also heard the earlier ones from London (on "period instruments")?

No, and no; I have but one Beethoven cycle on disc at the moment (Karajan '62), although I have discs from Vanska, Hogwood [period instruments], and a few others.

[Renfield]

No, and no; I have but one Beethoven cycle on disc at the moment (Karajan '62), although I have discs from Vanska, Hogwood [period instruments], and a few others.

Then first and foremost, you need to listen to the other Karajan 9ths!

Kidding. Although the '77 Karajan is one of my favourite non-Furtwängler Beethoven 9ths. In fact, since I brought him up, you should definitely listen to Furtwängler's 1942 9th, if you want a 9th of the ravishing go-for-the-thoat variety.

Although your issue with the slow movement is probably a Karajan thing, given how he plods in it, ca. 1962. He improved it, later.

(That's part of why I asked about the 9ths you know, in the other thread. )


End of digression. I might refresh the Edinburgh Mackerras cycle in my memory, tonight. Thanks for the inspiration!

[M forever]

No, and no; I have but one Beethoven cycle on disc at the moment (Karajan '62), although I have discs from Vanska, Hogwood [period instruments], and a few others.

Then you should get Harnoncourt and Norrington 1 first. Good as Mackerras' Edinburgh cycle is, these have more to offer to you at the point you are at. Avoid the many, many pseudo-HIP cycles out there (e.g. Mackerras' still puzzlingly bland RLPO cycle, Zinman, Gardiner, and some of the other half-baked "rethought" stuff like Haitink's LSO cycle, they are all well done but not really interesting and insightful at all; what distinguishes them is really only how consequently they all avoid to find confident answers to the mind-bogglingly complex task of Beethoven interpretation). Or if you want, you can waste your time with these later.

Hogwood is already a really good HIP cycle to have, more adventurous and investigating than many others. More "honest", too, I think.

I think you should still be able to sample the Mackerras' recordings on Operashare, if you have access there, although the sound quality wasn't so great on these live broadcast recordings.

There is also a live recording with the COE and Harnoncourt of the 5th from last year which is even better than the recording included in their cycle. This performance is simply astonishing, in fact, I would say it is probably "the best" Beethoven 5 I have ever heard (including Kleiber's even), but unfortunately, the sound is totally screwed up, so I am hunting for a better source for this now.

I don't see why you would want to have the Vänskä stuff though. They are quite nice (from what I have heard so far) and in good "modern" sound, but there is so much "conventional" Beethoven out there with far more distinguished and stylish playing and more characterful interpretation.

True. I only meant that some people have complained about the sound on the RLPO cycle.

Do you remember what those complaints were? I thought the sound was OK, if not exactly "spectacular".

[Renfield]

I don't see why you would want to have the Vänskä stuff though. They are quite nice (from what I have heard so far) and in good "modern" sound, but there is so much "conventional" Beethoven out there with far more distinguished and stylish playing and more characterful interpretation.

Yes, there are.

However, Vänskä's Beethoven (and his conducting in general) possesses a very exceptional rhythmic acuteness, to my ears.

And more so, the minimalist aesthetic he tends to apply to pieces that can otherwise (and often) sound opulent in other hands (see: Kleiber Jr.) does have its appeal. Of course, I'm not saying opulent is wrong: but Vänskä certainly embodies the "lean" aesthetic.

(Even more than Harnoncourt. Or in a different manner.)

[MN Dave]

Do you remember what those complaints were? I thought the sound was OK, if not exactly "spectacular".

Nothing specific, sorry. I think Harry had made a complaint about the set as well, however I can't remember exactly what the problem was.

[Brian]

Then you should get Harnoncourt and Norrington 1 first. Good as Mackerras' Edinburgh cycle is, these have more to offer to you at the point you are at. Avoid the many, many pseudo-HIP cycles out there (e.g. Mackerras' still puzzlingly bland RLPO cycle, Zinman, Gardiner, and some of the other half-baked "rethought" stuff like Haitink's LSO cycle, they are all well done but not really interesting and insightful at all; what distinguishes them is really only how consequently they all avoid to find confident answers to the mind-bogglingly complex task of Beethoven interpretation). Or if you want, you can waste your time with these later.

Hogwood is already a really good HIP cycle to have, more adventurous and investigating than many others. More "honest", too, I think.

I will definitely heed your advice regarding pseudo-HIPs: use of old-fashioned performance practices does not necessarily equate to an understanding of how to use them. As I'd been quite taken with the Norrington 2 over in the listening thread - have been hearing it on Naxos Music Library, streamed at 64kbps - I purchased the Eroica disc. Any particular reason I should be more interested in his first cycle, with the London players? Others' reviews seem to think the new cycle generally has more accomplished playing, at least.

I think you should still be able to sample the Mackerras' recordings on Operashare, if you have access there, although the sound quality wasn't so great on these live broadcast recordings.

Alas, I do not.

I don't see why you would want to have the Vänskä stuff though. They are quite nice (from what I have heard so far) and in good "modern" sound, but there is so much "conventional" Beethoven out there with far more distinguished and stylish playing and more characterful interpretation.

This seems a fairly apt description. And this is also why the Norrington/Stuttgart caught me by surprise on first listen - my experience with this new, rather savage, ferocious, Beethoven outside the interpretive "mainstream" has been quite enlightening. 

[M forever]

Any particular reason I should be more interested in his first cycle, with the London players?

Yes. Because it really is a very adventurous and daring cycle. And because I say so.

Others' reviews seem to think the new cycle generally has more accomplished playing, at least.

Bull. The LCP's playing is very highly accomplished.

[Lethevich]

Any particular reason I should be more interested in his first cycle, with the London players? Others' reviews seem to think the new cycle generally has more accomplished playing, at least.

Because it's a really neat (and cheap) I ditched mine after the bad feedback it has gotten, but M's constant advocacy made me rebuy and give it a better listen - and it's great fun.

[Renfield]

Because it's a really neat (and cheap) I ditched mine after the bad feedback it has gotten, but M's constant advocacy made me rebuy and give it a better listen - and it's great fun.

I'll third the motion.

It really is "neat". Although now I'm itching to Norrington's other cycle, too, after I found out it exists.

[Brian]

Purchased the Norrington/London cycle today. Should be here in a week.  Thanks all for the recommendations and especially M!

Renfield - my experiences with Nos 3 and 9 suggest that if you like your Beethoven on the daring side you'll love the new cycle.

[Renfield]

Renfield - my experiences with Nos 3 and 9 suggest that if you like your Beethoven on the daring side you'll love the new cycle.

I like my Beethoven on every side (I really like my Beethoven ), but given how I enjoyed Norrington's particular type of daring in the London Classical Players cycle, I think I will love the new one. Many thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[BorisG]

No love expressed for The Hanover Band's cycle? Under $15 new at amazon.com marketplace. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

Listen, if you want the cheapest cycle and not care one iota for quality then I recommend this one:



They used to give it out for free when you suscribe to MHS about 10 years ago. Now you can get the complete set for a cool $0.98 plus postage at Amazon marketplace.

[MN Dave]

We care. We want bang for the buck. 

[Brian]

Listen, if you want the cheapest cycle and not care one iota for quality then I recommend this one:



They used to give it out for free when you suscribe to MHS about 10 years ago. Now you can get the complete set for a cool $0.98 plus postage at Amazon marketplace.

Would that be because it doesn't have 6, 8 or 9?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Would that be because it doesn't have 6, 8 or 9?

Hmmm, when I bought it it case with 6, 8 or 9. The performances are not really distinguished but are not by any means bad.