Franz Schubert

[Jo498]

A "Konzertstück" does not have to follow sonata form or any other strict model. It only needs a concertante solo part for a solo instrument. If you take Beethoven's "Violinromanzen" or other shortish concertante pieces from Spohr, Mendelssohn, Saint-Saens they will often not be in sonata form either.
(Don't remember that Schubert piece well enough to say anything about it.)

[Mr. Three Putt]

I've spent a fair amount of time lamenting the early death of Schubert, as have many. Would have, could have, should have, yet one thought never escapes me. His final 18 months were possibly as fruitful as any 18 months of any composer in history. Had he not been staring death in the face and writing like a man possessed, the quality of his late works may have been affected. It's fun to imagine a Schubert concerto or 10, yet a pointless thought. Had he been blessed with longer life, his late works may have been altered, or....as unlikely as it seems.....completely unwritten. He did grace the world with an amazing catalog of music and I try to focus on this with respect. Not regret.

[Mandryka]

Did Schubert recycle the melody from his "Litanei" anywhere else? I swear I've heard it before in an instrumental (maybe orchestral) version, but I haven't listened to many of the Schubert songs.

Don't know

Is there a musical relation between Schoenberg's second quartet and Schubert's Litanei? I know they used the same text, but am I right to think there's a musical reference too?

[Jo498]

The text in the Schoenberg quartet is by his contemporary Stefan George and has nothing to do (except the title and a vague religious association) with the Text set by Schubert.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets_%28Schoenberg%29#String_Quartet_No._2

I am not aware that the melody from D 343 "Litanei auf das Fest Allerseelen" (litany for All Souls Day) was used in an instrumental Schubert work, but it might well be the case.

The most famous re-usings of Lied melodies in Schubert are "The trout", "Death and Maiden", "Trockne Blumen" (flute variations), "Der Wanderer" (eponymous Fantasy) and "Sei mir gegruesst" (Violin fantasy). There are a probably few more (e.g. the variation in the octet are based on some song from an obscure Singspiel) and also a few re-usings of instrumental themes, the most famous of which is the "Rosamunde" andante in that quartet which stems from an incidental music.

[Florestan]

Alas, D345 has nothing to do with concerto. It does not have a sonata form's repetition or development ...

By this token, Liszt´s piano concertos have nothing to do with concerto. They don´t have a sonata form´s repetition or development...

Your idea of a concerto sounds rather narrow and shallow. 

[Holden]

 ....and what really matters is how the composer marries the soloist with the ensemble. Chopin for example, struggled to do this so what we should look at is how Schubert fared in this regard.

[Florestan]

....and what really matters is how the composer marries the soloist with the ensemble. Chopin for example, struggled to do this

Care to expand on this, please?

[Mr. Three Putt]

Care to expand on this, please?

I'll start by saying Chopin's Piano Concertos are nothing more than exhibitions for piano with the orchestra accompanying them in a minor roll. I do enjoy them for their melodies and their craft but would never hold them in higher regard. Chopin did express his limited knowledge of orchestration and this serves well as context. I'll defer to others for their opinions.

[Holden]

Thanks Three Putt. I was going to reply to Florestan's query about my post but you've answered this better than I could have.

[Ten thumbs]

....and what really matters is how the composer marries the soloist with the ensemble. Chopin for example, struggled to do this so what we should look at is how Schubert fared in this regard.

Don't forget that in those days, pianists were said to perform chamber works. If you want to know how Schubert marries the soloist (viz. the pianist) with the ensemble, you only have to look at the Trout Quintet (or indeed the Piano Trios).

[Mr. Three Putt]

Don't forget that in those days, pianists were said to perform chamber works. If you want to know how Schubert marries the soloist (viz. the pianist) with the ensemble, you only have to look at the Trout Quintet (or indeed the Piano Trios).

Trout Quintet is a great example of interweaving the piano and ensemble, without truly spotlighting a single instrument. It is, after all, a piano quintet so the obvious leanings would go that way. I have to believe a piano concerto from Schubert would have been sublime. He had Mozart his idol, and some massive concertos from LvB to draw inspiration from. If you draw parallels between Schubert and Schumann, you'll hear how Schumann progressed from Quintet (1842) to Concerto (1845) and can imagine a similar path from Schubert. Seeing how Schumann's works are considered all-time greats, while Schubert's PQ is mentioned often during discussions of "greatest ever", I find it hard to doubt a later concerto from Franz would have been a top shelf work. If given the chance to write 5, as did Beethoven, I can't help think Schubert's may have been mentioned amongst the finest ever as well. As this is all speculation, I'll now listen to Schumann's PQ, as existing works tend to sound better than speculative ones.

[El Chupacabra]

Trout Quintet is a great example of interweaving the piano and ensemble, without truly spotlighting a single instrument.

Schubert used Hummel's Op 74. as a model to D667

[Brahmsian]

Comparison/influence question:

Is there a relationship or connection with Beethoven's Six German Dances for violin and piano, WoO42, and Schubert's Symphony No. 2 in B flat, D125?

Specifically, between the 5th and 6th German dance four note theme, and the 2nd theme (four note theme) found in Schubert's 3rd movement Menuetto: Allegro Vivace of his 2nd symphony?

[zamyrabyrd]

I'll start by saying Chopin's Piano Concertos are nothing more than exhibitions for piano with the orchestra accompanying them in a minor roll. I do enjoy them for their melodies and their craft but would never hold them in higher regard. Chopin did express his limited knowledge of orchestration and this serves well as context. I'll defer to others for their opinions.

Though this subject was hashed out already on GMG, I personally would not change a note of any of Chopin's piano and orchestra works.

[Florestan]

Though this subject was hashed out already on GMG, I personally would not change a note of any of Chopin's piano and orchestra works.

Amen, sister!

[Mandryka]

Anyone read this?

[calyptorhynchus]

What's the verdict on the brilliant classics Schubert box? I'd be mainly interested in the 13 disks of songs. Who are the artists for these?

[Rinaldo]

Just read through the whole thread and it's interesting how JdP was talking about "getting over Schubert's melodies" and discovering "nothing to get back to".

Because it seems I finally got over Schubert's melodies and.. discovered he might be one of my favourite composers. I'm sure my recent sorrowful experience has something to do with it as well, but the way Schubert illustrates the human condition just speaks to me on a whole new level these days. Navneeth cited a great quote by Anner Bylsma:

Schubert is a man on his way to the gallows, unable to stop telling his friends how incomparably beautiful life is -- and how simple.

Word. Plus he sounds so damn effortless about it, like a kid leading you on a path to a wonderful, secluded garden, and you think he might've repeatedly missed the right turn but then look, you're already there! You've been there all the time! Schubert's songs are an inspiration, his chamber music a balm on the soul. I've yet to give the symphonies a thorough listen (I've got the Immerseel set) but looking forward to hearing what he managed in the grander arrangements.

Any book recommendations on his life and work? I've got Bostridge's Winterreise wishlisted and the Mysterium Magnum looks appealing (except for the atrocious cover), but I'd like a solid biography to start with.

[zamyrabyrd]

Trout Quintet is a great example of interweaving the piano and ensemble, without truly spotlighting a single instrument. It is, after all, a piano quintet so the obvious leanings would go that way. I have to believe a piano concerto from Schubert would have been sublime. He had Mozart his idol, and some massive concertos from LvB to draw inspiration from. If you draw parallels between Schubert and Schumann, you'll hear how Schumann progressed from Quintet (1842) to Concerto (1845) and can imagine a similar path from Schubert. Seeing how Schumann's works are considered all-time greats, while Schubert's PQ is mentioned often during discussions of "greatest ever", I find it hard to doubt a later concerto from Franz would have been a top shelf work. If given the chance to write 5, as did Beethoven, I can't help think Schubert's may have been mentioned amongst the finest ever as well. As this is all speculation, I'll now listen to Schumann's PQ, as existing works tend to sound better than speculative ones.

The "interweaving of piano and ensemble" plus the rather non-operatic spirit of Schubert's is precisely why i wouldn't expect a piano concerto from him if he lived longer, at least not in the heroic piano against the orchestra mold.
One thing I couldn't fail to notice, particularly in his songs, is the extent of expressive detail. This doesn't contradict his craftsmanship in his larger works or as compared to any other composer of vocal music, say Verdi, who painted in larger strokes but was also scrupulously attentive to detail. Schubert is one of those composers when you think you "got it", there is probably some other nuance you overlooked, even after studying and hearing the same pieces over a long period.

[Spineur]

An interesting bit of trivia:
Schubert music has been used in the soundtrack of 601 movies....
One can safely say that his music has remained at the center of the western world culture.