What is the differnece between a piccollo and a recorder?

[Bogey]

Or are they the same?

[Pierre]

More expert definitions will probably appear, but essentially a piccolo is a smaller, higher-pitched version of a flute (which is held horizontally when played) and tends to appear in a 'modern' symphony orchestra; while the recorder (held vertically when played) is actually a type of instrument in its own right and is more often associated with baroque music (Bach, for instance). The most familiar recorder is soprano, which used to appear all too regularly at elementary school to be overblown and thoroughly hated by generations of children. However there are various sizes and pitches of recorder, and when played well in 'choirs' it can sound beautiful.

[Bogey]

More expert definitions will probably appear, but essentially a piccolo is a smaller, higher-pitched version of a flute (which is held horizontally when played) and tends to appear in a 'modern' symphony orchestra; while the recorder (held vertically when played) is actually a type of instrument in its own right and is more often associated with baroque music (Bach, for instance). The most familiar recorder is soprano, which used to appear all too regularly at elementary school to be overblown and thoroughly hated by generations of children. However there are various sizes and pitches of recorder, and when played well in 'choirs' it can sound beautiful.

Thanks!  So, for Vivaldi's Piccolo Concertos (RV 443-445), would a piccolo have actually have been used back in his time?

[FideLeo]

Thanks!  So, for Vivaldi's Piccolo Concertos (RV 443-445), would a piccolo have actually have been used back in his time?

I think Vivaldi actually wrote these pieces for a sopranino recorder (it. flautino) in the solo part.  In Italian, the word flauto would have meant recorders in 18th century.  The two recorders (in F) in Bach's 4th Brandenburg were specified as fiauti d'echo, for example.

[Bogey]

I think Vivaldi actually wrote these pieces for a sopranino recorder (it. flautino) in the solo part.  In Italian, the word flauto would have meant recorders in 18th century.  The two recorders (in F) in Bach's 4th Brandenburg were specified as fiauti d'echo, for example.

Maybe your expertise can boil this article down for me.  Is it saying what you just did? 

http://www.spinningdogrecords.com/29.html

Were there even piccolos in Vivaldi's day?

[The new erato]

Were there even piccolos in Vivaldi's day?

I'm quite sure there weren't.

[karlhenning]

jochanaan will be able to shed light on the matter of when the modern transverse flute came into use . . . .

[Bogey]

I guess I am wondering which would have been the correct historical instrument.

[jochanaan]

Karl and Bogey, it depends on what you mean by "modern."  Theobald Böhm invented the modern key system for the flute in the 1840s, but there have been both transverse flutes and vertically-held ones (like the recorder) since antiquity.  Bach's Fifth Brandenburg calls specifically for a transverse flute, as does his Second Suite (I think), and his Flute Sonatas were most likely written for transverse flute.  (Their ranges are a little wide for even the most skilled recorder player! )

Traditional Irish flutes are also either transverse or vertical.

As for the Vivaldi concertos in question, I have one of them on a 1960s LP, played by Bernard Krainis on sopranino recorder.  It is highly unlikely that they were played on anything like the modern "piccolo" (short for the Italian flauto piccolo "little flute"), since as far as I know, this seems to have entered the orchestra only around 1800 or a little before.  I've heard Papageno's "bird whistles" in The Magic Flute played both on piccolo and on something more primitive-sounding.  Beethoven's Fifth is the first major symphony to use a piccolo in the orchestra.  However, the "fife" of a "fife and drum corps" is essentially a primitive piccolo... Still, I suspect that to use a modern piccolo, Bogey, is something of an anachronism.  Unless all the other instruments are also modern, in which case, you'd have to say you were dealing with a transcription.

(I'm not a fan of mixing early and modern instruments; the early ones will likely be out of tune if they're heard at all. )

[Bogey]

Thank you both gentlemen.  The last time we had three posts together I recall I enjoyed a wonderful evening of music.  I will discretely do some inquiring this evening. 

[jochanaan]

You're welcome, and happy listening!  But please let me know if you find any actual concertos for piccolo! 

[12tone.]

The most familiar recorder is soprano, which used to appear all too regularly at elementary school to be overblown and thoroughly hated by generations of children.

I learned the recorder when I was in elementary!  Never liked it then at all, but now wish I kept it up.  Baroque recorder is one of my favorite instruments.

[FideLeo]

I learned the recorder when I was in elementary!  Never liked it then at all, but now wish I kept it up.  Baroque recorder is one of my favorite instruments.

Baroque recorders are interesting but wait until you try Renaissance (eg. Ganassi) instruments.  Playing in consort is  fun fun fun! 

[karlhenning]

(I'm not a fan of mixing early and modern instruments; the early ones will likely be out of tune if they're heard at all. )

My violist chum Pete (and his esteemed Baroque cellist wife Rachel) have similiar qualms string-wise . . . in brief, a policy of gut or wire, choose either one for the whole ensemble, and don't mix.

[lukeottevanger]

You're welcome, and happy listening!  But please let me know if you find any actual concertos for piccolo! 

How about this one?

[not edward]

How about this one?

Roberto Fabbriciani has recorded Valentino Bucchi's punning Piccolo concerto (read the title in both Italian and English).

[jochanaan]

How about this one?

Looks interesting!  Any recordings?

Roberto Fabbriciani has recorded Valentino Bucchi's punning Piccolo concerto (read the title in both Italian and English).

*snickers*