Dvorak's Den

[kyjo]

Absolutely - but what amazes me with someone like Dvorak is how many different great melodies he was able to write in his life.  I'd have been happy to come up with just one good one - he wrote hundreds!

+1 Dvorak was the textbook definition of a tunesmith, and far more than that to boot!

[Symphonic Addict]

Do you think that there is a work of his that really lack some good tune?

[Leo K.]

I finally getting into Dvorak after flirtations with his music here and there over the years. Currently enjoying the complete symphonies with Otmar Suitner. Aces!

[Mirror Image]

I finally getting into Dvorak after flirtations with his music here and there over the years. Currently enjoying the complete symphonies with Otmar Suitner. Aces!

Nice! The Suitner cycle is fantastic. He brings out so many of the nuances in this music that seem to be lost with some other conductors.

[Leo K.]

Nice! The Suitner cycle is fantastic. He brings out so many of the nuances in this music that seem to be lost with some other conductors.

Thanks! I am glad this set is working out for a newbie!

[Madiel]

Record companies often divide up the symphonies into groups of 3. I'm now convinced this is unhelpful. There are 2 early symphonies, then 3 'middle' ones, then 4 later/mature career ones (after Dvorak was a well-known composer thanks to works like the first set of Slavonic Dances).

I'm currently listening to Symphony No.6 (Kertesz) with that mindset.

Interestingly there is a recent album that labels symphonies 6 to 9 as the "late" symphonies (Park Avenue Chamber Symphony).

[Jo498]

This might be an artifact of the CD twofer... I think for the longest time the "rule of 3" meant: Record/play the last 3, ignore the rest. So many listeners would have had first recordings of 7-9 and therefore e.g. for me the two other twofers of Rowicki were quite welcome (although I only got the one with 4-6 and later the complete set with Kertesz).
In LP times one usually needed one LP per symphony (+ maybe an ouverture as filler). Because of the complicated history with delayed premieres, different numbering and relative obscurity of the first 4? symphonies in the age of recordings most listeners have no idea (I didn't) about the gaps that would justify a grouping like 1+2, 3-5 etc. And there are and I guess will be almost no recordings of 1+2 and very few  of 3-5 outside complete cycles.

[Madiel]

Probably all very true. But it doesn't stop me feeling sorry for the fate of the 6th symphony in particular.

Although I feel even more sorry for Nature, Life and Love (In Nature's Realm, Carnival and Othello), which is so often split up when they are interconnected compositions. I admire Naxos' set of the published orchestral works for acknowledging the importance of a lot more of Dvorak's music beside the symphonies.

[Jo498]

Yes, but I think the 6th and the 5th have almost come into their own by now wheras both the late tone poems and the "trilogy" you mentioned (another thing I only realized when I got Kubelik's twofer with that stuff) are both underappreciated and often relegated to "filler" status. And there is one of the best sets of orchestral variatons and a great standalone scherzo as well... Of the "minor" pieces the Slavonic dances dominate (understandably but a bit too strongly) the rhapsodies etc.

[Madiel]

I'm working through all the orchestral works at the moment, chronologically. With side trips into other genres (it's not hard to be obsessed with Dvorak, at the very least you'll get great tunes everywhere).

Part of the reason for doing this is to get a better picture in my own head about all the other works, some of which I'm streaming because I don't a recording, and realising which ones aren't that "minor" at all - like the 3 symphonic rhapsodies that were actually very popular in Dvorak's own lifetime, and important in establishing his reputation.

I have to admit to not really warming to the Symphonic Variations yet. But the rhapsodies are very good, and I already think the Scherzo Capriccioso is excellent (I'm nearly up to that in my survey, it was written between the 6th and 7th symphonies).

Even some of the more genuinely minor works are great fun. I wasn't really aware that Dvorak wrote at least 4 ballroom dances, genuinely for balls that were held in Prague. And one of these, the Gallop, isn't even properly published and I've only seen mention of unpublished recordings as well. For the other 3 there are only a couple of recordings. Surely if you want some filler, a series of ballroom dances would make a highly entertaining filler.

[Brian]

That sounds like a great journey, Madiel. Heck, I might have to join in and go in order properly to experience the evolution too.

Although Dvorak has been a favorite of mine since high school, I'm listening with new ears recently to two things in particular. How overstuffed the early (1-5) symphonies and other works are with rhythmic motifs and unifying elements, and how skilfully he varies and develops small bits of material.

He hides both of those pursuits with how surface level beautiful all his music is. You get carried away by melodies, woodwind solos, dances, etc. And only later have I been noticing how densely structured it all is. (Or, in the case of a piece like Symphony 2, how dense he tried to make it, only to get overexcited and pack too much in.)

The Symphonic Variations took me a long time because of the deliberately gawky, oddly shaped melody, which of course he chose as a challenge. (Or did someone else dare him to use it?) But now - especially with the aid of Theodore Kuchar's fast, exciting, no fuss recording - I see that it lies within a whole incredible tradition of his variations. It's the mature descendant of his attempt to write a symphonic movement with only one theme (3/i) and an ancestor of his later works which aren't T&V per se, but are basically one theme developed in wildly different directions so that they sound like multiple themes and moods (e.g. the Water Goblin, the Wood Dove, Symphony No. 8 ).

Gosh, but it's all so much fun. There's no wonder people don't analyze Dvorak like they do Brahms or whoever - because you don't want to distract from the fun.

I just listened to Kertesz do the Eighth yesterday, btw. His version is almost Mahler-like in its urgency and color.

[kyjo]

That sounds like a great journey, Madiel. Heck, I might have to join in and go in order properly to experience the evolution too.

Although Dvorak has been a favorite of mine since high school, I'm listening with new ears recently to two things in particular. How overstuffed the early (1-5) symphonies and other works are with rhythmic motifs and unifying elements, and how skilfully he varies and develops small bits of material.

He hides both of those pursuits with how surface level beautiful all his music is. You get carried away by melodies, woodwind solos, dances, etc. And only later have I been noticing how densely structured it all is. (Or, in the case of a piece like Symphony 2, how dense he tried to make it, only to get overexcited and pack too much in.)

The Symphonic Variations took me a long time because of the deliberately gawky, oddly shaped melody, which of course he chose as a challenge. (Or did someone else dare him to use it?) But now - especially with the aid of Theodore Kuchar's fast, exciting, no fuss recording - I see that it lies within a whole incredible tradition of his variations. It's the mature descendant of his attempt to write a symphonic movement with only one theme (3/i) and an ancestor of his later works which aren't T&V per se, but are basically one theme developed in wildly different directions so that they sound like multiple themes and moods (e.g. the Water Goblin, the Wood Dove, Symphony No. 8 ).

Gosh, but it's all so much fun. There's no wonder people don't analyze Dvorak like they do Brahms or whoever - because you don't want to distract from the fun.

I just listened to Kertesz do the Eighth yesterday, btw. His version is almost Mahler-like in its urgency and color.

Well said, Brian! The early symphonies are indeed fascinating in their profusion of material, but they rarely sound "overstuffed" due to Dvorak's mastery of melody and orchestral texture. Looking at a score to these early symphonies reveals just how incredibly detailed their orchestration and rhythmic intricacy is - for their time, especially!

[Madiel]

Personally I think the first 2 symphonies do sound overstuffed... and some of the early quartets.

The thing about Dvorak is that he always had the tunes. But his career took off once he learned better how to deploy them.

And what's kind of astonishing is how rapidly the transformation occurred. We are missing quite a few early works because Dvorak destroyed them, but even so it's possible to observe in just a couple of years a really big leap in his ability to shape material rather than just have a string of tunes, so that the ear doesn't get tired. And from there he just keeps getting better and better at it.

[Brian]

And what's kind of astonishing is how rapidly the transformation occurred. We are missing quite a few early works because Dvorak destroyed them, but even so it's possible to observe in just a couple of years a really big leap in his ability to shape material rather than just have a string of tunes, so that the ear doesn't get tired. And from there he just keeps getting better and better at it.

Agreed! Or perhaps once he learned to unify the string of tunes or use them to enhance each other. I counted the other day and the exposition of the Sixth Symphony first movement arguably has four main themes? And in the same part of the Eighth, I count six. But they're related rather than a jumble.

[Mirror Image]

Some astute observations Brian, Madiel, Kyle et. al. I know it's not "hip" to like Dvořák's 1st symphony, but I can't help myself. I do love it and it's one of the more remarkable first symphonies that I've heard from any composer. It's even better than Brahms' 1st (although, admittedly, I'm not a huge Brahms fan and definitely prefer his "enemies" like Wagner, Bruckner, etc.). I do think of Dvořák as a tunesmith, but he's so much more than this --- the color that is in his music, especially in the orchestration. A work that seldom gets discussed that impresses me to no end is A Hero's Song, Op. 111, B. 199. Obviously, this is a late work, but I'm floored by the sheer color and execution of brilliant ideas --- one after another. Like Brahms, he could develop a melody and make that melody go through one variation after another and this could last for 30 minutes!

[Madiel]

Tonight's burning question: do I need the original version of Cypresses if I already have all of Dvorak's mature revisions?

There's a recording on Hanssler that I somehow ignored until now. First impressions from snippets are it's as good, if not better, than the Langridge/Kvapil version that I was previously thinking about, and much better recorded, AND far more readily available.

Maybe I was put off by there being 2 singers, but they claim the score actually indicates some songs are tenor and some baritone. Or maybe I was put off by it being a 2CD set with the string quartet version. But now my interest is piqued. It shouldn't be piqued after midnight but silly me gets obsessed about these questions at the wrong times.

[Madiel]

Now that I'm at a computer... this is the album I'm rambling about.

[kyjo]

Some astute observations Brian, Madiel, Kyle et. al. I know it's not "hip" to like Dvořák's 1st symphony, but I can't help myself. I do love it and it's one of the more remarkable first symphonies that I've heard from any composer. It's even better than Brahms' 1st (although, admittedly, I'm not a huge Brahms fan and definitely prefer his "enemies" like Wagner, Bruckner, etc.). I do think of Dvořák as a tunesmith, but he's so much more than this --- the color that is in his music, especially in the orchestration. A work that seldom gets discussed that impresses me to no end is A Hero's Song, Op. 111, B. 199. Obviously, this is a late work, but I'm floored by the sheer color and execution of brilliant ideas --- one after another. Like Brahms, he could develop a melody and make that melody go through one variation after another and this could last for 30 minutes!

I agree about A Hero's Song, John. This stirring tone poem gets a bad rap for no reason at all! I might even prefer it to, say, The Golden Spinning Wheel (which has much fine music in it but is perhaps a bit too long for its own good).

[Mirror Image]

I agree about A Hero's Song, John. This stirring tone poem gets a bad rap for no reason at all! I might even prefer it to, say, The Golden Spinning Wheel (which has much fine music in it but is perhaps a bit too long for its own good).

I'm not sure if I've read any negative comments about A Hero's Song per se, but it does seem to me to be the most neglected of his symphonic poems.

[Olias]

I've just added my analysis video for the 6th Symphony to my Dvorak blog if anyone is interested.

https://dvorakshack.blogspot.com