Most Intelligent Composers

[Wanderer]

Which composer do you think shows the greatest amount of intellect in his music?
I don't mean music which is just composed as complex as possible. The ideal conditions of a score which shows the highest level of sophistication would mean for me (also a point to discuss!): each note stands in relation to all the other notes ...

Medtner's music is most highly accomplished in this regard, as well. His scores show a formidable faculty of counterpoint and motivic development, combined with an intimate grasp of form (especially the sonata and variation forms) and impressive use of complex polyrhythms.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

So it's largely a question of who we feel is 'the most intelligent composer', or 'most intellectual composer', yes?  Selecting Wagner for this designation, is in part because we have the great benefit of his announcing himself, and repeatedly, that he is, right? 

Wagner and Sean...two peas in a pod...

[Sean]

 

[head-case]

I think you are right in terms of abstracting the music from the music and drama. Certainly Beethoven, Mozart, Profokiev, Tchaikovsky, etc. quite often matched Wagner on musical terms (I'd put op.132 over anything by anybody, for instance). I meant from the perspective of writing both the music and drama, and how well they hold up as a team. You probably guessed that.

The internet has proven that even mental midgets can produce prodigious amounts of jibberish text.  Wagner was a pioneer in introducing more chromaticism and more brass into music, and for conceiving an opera as something like a symphony with singing, rather than as a series of songs connected by a story, but his libretti are nothing to brag about, in my opinion.  Just last night I was listening to Die Walkure, and most of the second act is absolutely insufferable.  Why is it necessary for every character to have a 30 minute soliloquy in which he or she narrates the action that we just saw in the previous act (or the previous opera)?   

And can someone explain to me why, if the magic ring gives the wearer the power to rule the world, the wearer can also be immediately dispatched by a swift blow to the head, or by being tricked into turning him or herself into a frog?  How powerful can this ring be? 

And how can you keep all of these magic props straight?  There's the magic gold, the hord the Nibelungen mined after Alberich got the magic gold, the magic ring made from the magic gold, the magic hat made from the hord, the magic sword, the magic spear made from the magic ash tree.  How do we know which magic is strongest.  It's like the worlds most complicated game of rock-paper-scissors.  At least Mozart only had to deal with a magic flute and magic glockenspeil.

[Haffner]

The internet has proven that even mental midgets can produce prodigious amounts of jibberish text. 

Yes it has, hasn't it?

[karlhenning]

The internet has proven that even mental midgets can produce prodigious amounts of jibberish text.

And Wagner did it without the Internet!

(Couldn't resist, sorry!)

[(poco) Sforzando]

And Wagner did it without the Internet!

(Couldn't resist, sorry!)

Think how much more gibberish he could have produced if he could have registered at GMG!

[karlhenning]

Dangerous vision, sforza! 

[Haffner]

Think how much more gibberish he could have produced if he could have registered at GMG!

Whhheeeeee!

[Ten thumbs]

For me, Mozart's music has always been the most unalterable. However, it is not overtly intellectual. Of composers with known high intelligence, Mendelssohn is one of the most well known. Again, he is not renowned as an intellectual. It is quite possible that the most intelligent composer of all never achieved fame in that field and became an astro-physicist instead.

[DavidRoss]

[Wagner's] libretti are nothing to brag about, in my opinion.  Just last night I was listening to Die Walkure, and most of the second act is absolutely insufferable.  Why is it necessary for every character to have a 30 minute soliloquy in which he or she narrates the action that we just saw in the previous act (or the previous opera)?   

Amen.  "The Master" was a dismal failure as a dramatist, but a brilliant self-promoter. 

As for intelligence, it's terribly overrated by those painfully impressed with their own modest allotment. Talent, opportunity, and persistent hard work trump native intelligence 99 times out of a hundred.  And I wish folks would stop conflating intelligence and intellectualism.  They are utterly distinct, but sometimes overlap--like talent and ambition.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Think how much more gibberish he [Wagner] could have produced if he could have registered at GMG!

Ah, but with Sean around we have a pretty fair inkling of what it would've been like...

(Sorry... )

[Sean]

 

[marvinbrown]

The internet has proven that even mental midgets can produce prodigious amounts of jibberish text.  Wagner was a pioneer in introducing more chromaticism and more brass into music, and for conceiving an opera as something like a symphony with singing, rather than as a series of songs connected by a story, but his libretti are nothing to brag about, in my opinion.  Just last night I was listening to Die Walkure, and most of the second act is absolutely insufferable.  Why is it necessary for every character to have a 30 minute soliloquy in which he or she narrates the action that we just saw in the previous act (or the previous opera)?   

And can someone explain to me why, if the magic ring gives the wearer the power to rule the world, the wearer can also be immediately dispatched by a swift blow to the head, or by being tricked into turning him or herself into a frog?  How powerful can this ring be? 

And how can you keep all of these magic props straight?  There's the magic gold, the hord the Nibelungen mined after Alberich got the magic gold, the magic ring made from the magic gold, the magic hat made from the hord, the magic sword, the magic spear made from the magic ash tree.  How do we know which magic is strongest.  It's like the worlds most complicated game of rock-paper-scissors.  At least Mozart only had to deal with a magic flute and magic glockenspeil.

  head-case all I can say in Wagner's defence, of course, is that his music dramas were never meant to be micro-analyzed.  When critics pointed out to Wagner inconsistencies in his librettos his reaction was that they missed the point of it all.  One should look at the big picture, enjoy the glorious music, the emotional impact of it all.  Wagner's intricate and complex use of the leitmotif is a testament to his intelligence. Plus Wagner used to intensely read the philosophical works of Hegel, Nietzsche etc.  Wagner was an intellectual first and formost.  The fact that he was a racist, antisemitic adulterer is mutually exclusive from his intelect. 

  marvin

[(poco) Sforzando]

  head-case all I can say in Wagner's defence, of course, is that his music dramas were never meant to be micro-analyzed.  When critics pointed out to Wagner inconsistencies in his librettos his reaction was that they missed the point of it all.  One should look at the big picture, enjoy the glorious music, the emotional impact of it all.

Sorry, Marvin, but that just won't work. Wagner was making excuses, and rather shoddy ones coming from the great proponent of the Gesamtkunstwerk. What's there is there, and if the librettos are dramatically faulty that just can't be explained away by telling us not to look at them.

As for the intelligence/intellectual thing from the past few posts, my point as stated previously is that there is a specifically musical kind of intellect that has nothing to do with conventional verbal or mathematical intelligences. Beethoven wrote bad German letters and couldn't multiply. Now consider the Eroica or Op. 131.

[karlhenning]

Sorry, Marvin, but that just won't work. Wagner was making excuses, and rather shoddy ones . . . .

Aye, and you can measure a wagnerite's malaise by his willingness to canonize those excuses as a sort of "holy writ."

As for the intelligence/intellectual thing from the past few posts, my point as stated previously is that there is a specifically musical kind of intellect that has nothing to do with conventional verbal or mathematical intelligences.

Yes, and I think Cato has remarked more than once on there being a variety of faculties of intelligence. Not that the topic has been anything like exhausted, no, not a jot.

[karlhenning]

It is quite possible that the most intelligent composer of all never achieved fame in that field and became an astro-physicist instead.

Hmm. That hypothetical illustration appears to favor natural-science intelligence over artistic intelligence, doesn't it?

[marvinbrown]

Sorry, Marvin, but that just won't work. Wagner was making excuses, and rather shoddy ones coming from the great proponent of the Gesamtkunstwerk. What's there is there, and if the librettos are dramatically faulty that just can't be explained away by telling us not to look at them.

  Be that as it may, the music of the Ring Cycle is flawless  0:)!

  PS: if not flawless then remarkably enjoyable  .

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

Aye, and you can measure a wagnerite's malaise by his willingness to canonize those excuses as a sort of "holy writ."

  Correction mon ami  , you can always measure a wagnerite's enjoyment and delight, no discomfort here I assure you! I'll take any excuse Wagner gives so long as I can listen to his music and partake in the adventure of the Ring Cycle. 

  marvin

[head-case]

So defensive, I never mentioned that he was a racist, antisemitic adulterer.

I don't think you have to be a micro-analyzer to be bothered by Wagner's texts.   The logical inconsistencies wouldn't be noticeable if it weren't for the 45 minute stretches where nothing happens (except Wotan is whining about his magic spear) and you have nothing else to think about.  For that reason I like Rheingold a lot.  Something is always happening, at least, and Loge is lots of fun.

  head-case all I can say in Wagner's defence, of course, is that his music dramas were never meant to be micro-analyzed.  When critics pointed out to Wagner inconsistencies in his librettos his reaction was that they missed the point of it all.  One should look at the big picture, enjoy the glorious music, the emotional impact of it all.  Wagner's intricate and complex use of the leitmotif is a testament to his intelligence. Plus Wagner used to intensely read the philosophical works of Hegel, Nietzsche etc.  Wagner was an intellectual first and formost.  The fact that he was a racist, antisemitic adulterer is mutually exclusive from his intelect. 

  marvin