Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

[San Antone]

There is another point I want to make -

If your goal is to use only the instruments available to Bach and play this music in a manner as he might have done, that is a historical way to play these pieces.  However, if your goal is to produce the most beautiful sound this music can achieve, despite using instruments unavailable to Bach, then you are playing in an non-historical method and concerned primarily with aesthetical issues instead of historical authenticity.

Both can be musical.

[San Antone]

I just listened to Roger Woodward.  He trills on the appoggiatura plus dynamically softening the resolution, and delaying it rhythmically a small amount.  That is more than what Schiff does, and a whole lot more than what Leonhardt does.

[milk]

I was not entirely serious, hence the emoji.  You may be too ego-invested in this issue to relax and see some humor.

Btw, Schiff does not say that how Leonhardt plays is "unmusical" but if someone were to sing the figure in that manner, it would be unmusical.  Iow, for any instrument that can execute dynamics, these figures are played in that manner, to not do so is unmusical.  But if your instrument cannot execute dynamics, then you must come up with some other musical way to play these figures.

unmusical? I don't think so. I like Schiff but I think dynamics are the potential of the piano that I'm most sensitive too. It's why I rarely put on Chopin: the thing starts out quiet and the next thing I know it's banging through the speakers. I'm glad HIP came around so there are many ways to hear Bach. Notice Schiff says "no pedal." Some might say, like you, that there's some place in the music that it would be unmusical not to push it.
I just think there are many ways to hear Bach. Schiff might hear cantabile here and that can lead to something good. I'm glad it's not the only thing. There are limits to the piano too in the way it connects and can't connect notes and sounds.

[San Antone]

unmusical? I don't think so. I like Schiff but I think dynamics are the potential of the piano that I'm most sensitive too. It's why I rarely put on Chopin: the thing starts out quiet and the next thing I know it's banging through the speakers. I'm glad HIP came around so there are many ways to hear Bach. Notice Schiff says "no pedal." Some might say, like you, that there's some place in the music that it would be unmusical not to push it.
I just think there are many ways to hear Bach. Schiff might hear cantabile here and that can lead to something good. I'm glad it's not the only thing. There are limits to the piano too in the way it connects and can't connect notes and sounds.

Schiff was focusing on one figure in one prelude, an appoggiatura, which is sometimes referred to as a "sighing" figure.  Almost always an appoggiatura is sung with the emphasis on the first note and then a softening on the resolution.  It is pretty straight-forward and I doubt you will find any musician who would disagree.  The only time this figure is not played in this manner is if you are playing an instrument which cannot execute dynamics, e.g. an harpsichord. 

"Unmusical" is Schiff's characterization for someone to sing an appoggiatura contrary to this "sighing" phrasing.  His word, maybe a bit harsh, but which I can understand.

Your problem with Chopin and the piano's dynamic potential might be related to a specific performer's interpretation, or recordings which are not engineered very well, or any number of reasons.  Chopin wrote his works specifically to exploit the capabilities of the piano.  Bach wrote for the keyboard instruments of his time, but in almost every work there are things which either difficult or impossible to play, which leads me to think that Bach was thinking outside the box of his time.  He might have thought of his compositions abstractly, i.e. hearing them ideally in his head in a manner which he knew could not be realized with the instruments at hand.

I don't know.  But what cannot be ignored is that concerning the preludes and fugues in The Well-Tempered Clavier, Schiff is correct in saying that there is no single instrument from Bach's time which can execute all of the music in every one of the preludes and fugues in an ideal manner, or even at all in some cases.  Some instruments do not have the range, some cannot execute dynamics and some cannot sustain a note long enough. The piano comes closest, but even it cannot sustain a note long enough without the aid of the pedal (which Schiff uses, but does not like it since it clouds the counterpoint).

[Mandryka]

I wonder how people in the first half of the c17 would have executed appoggiaturas on a clavichord. My suspicion is that the convention to play appoggiaturas with dynamics is a piano convention, and hence a red herring.

Neither Tuma nor Kirkpatrick (who use a clavichord) doesn't use dynamics to mark the sighing figure  (and Kirkpatrick has a huge dynamic potential in his instrument) , or if they do it's very very subtle.

Anyway, don't confuse

1. Cantabile, singing style
2. Making the appoggiatures sigh
3. Drawing attention to the first note
4. Playing the first note more forcefully.

F.e. Rubsam plays cantabile, he makes them sigh, he draws attention to the first note and he doesn't (can't) play the first note louder.

I just think it's daft to claim that this prelude needs to be played on a piano to come off - and that's Schiff's claim. I could list 10 people who do a much better job of it than Schiff does, and they certainly don't use a piano!

But most of all Schiff's way of arguing the point seems to me offensive and disingenuous, and indeed so does San Antone's with his "I don't think you'll find any musician who'll disagree."  Egarr (author of "cantabile heaven") Kirkpatrick, Rübsam (whole based his whole approach on a study of cantabile), Tuma,  Hill, Leonhardt, Asperen, Woodward, etc etc don't agree. Maybe they're not musicians.

[San Antone]

I wonder how people in the first half of the c17 would have executed appoggiaturas on a clavichord. My suspicion is that the convention to play appoggiaturas with dynamics is a piano convention, and hence a red herring.

Neither Tuma nor Kirkpatrick (who use a clavichord) doesn't use dynamics to mark the sighing figure  (and Kirkpatrick has a huge dynamic potential in his instrument) , or if they do it's very very subtle.

Anyway, don't confuse

1. Cantabile, singing style
2. Making the appoggiatures sigh
3. Drawing attention to the first note
4. Playing the first note more forcefully.

F.e. Rubsam plays cantabile, he makes them sigh, he draws attention to the first note and he doesn't (can't) play the first note louder.

I just think it's daft to claim that this prelude needs to be played on a piano to come off - and that's Schiff's claim. I could list 10 people who do a much better job of it than Schiff does, and they certainly don't use a piano!

But most of all Schiff's way of arguing the point seems to me offensive and disingenuous, and indeed so does San Antone's with his "I don't think you'll find any musician who'll disagree."  Egarr (author of "cantabile heaven") Kirkpatrick, Rübsam (whole based his whole approach on a study of cantabile), Tuma,  Hill, Leonhardt, Asperen, Woodward, etc etc don't agree. Maybe they're not musicians.

Well, you are conflating singing the appoggiatura with playing it on a keyboard instrument.  I am pretty sure people could sing in the 17th century.  And I feel confident that musicians all agree on how to sing an appoggiatura - which is also how it is normally replicated on an instrument, if the instrument can execute the dynamics.  (I am pretty sure a clavichord can execute dynamics.)

[Mandryka]

Well, you are conflating singing the appoggiatura with playing it on a keyboard instrument.  I am pretty sure people could sing in the 17th century.  And I feel confident that musicians all agree on how to sing an appoggiatura - which is also how it is normally replicated on an instrument, if the instrument can execute the dynamics.  (I am pretty sure a clavichord can execute dynamics.)

A clavichord has dynamics. If Tuma and Kirkpatrick are using it in the figure, it's very subtle. To create a sighing gesture, you need to draw attention to the first note -- and playing it louder is just one way. What Rubsam does in 881 isn't singable -- is it cantabile keyboard playing? See what you think.

What I'm investigating is whether you can create the sighing gesture, play cantabile and not use dynamics.

(By the way, when people say that a clavichord doesn't have the range for some of the WTC pieces, what do they mean?)

[San Antone]

A clavichord has dynamics. If Tuma and Kirkpatrick are using it in the figure, it's very subtle. To create a sighing gesture, you need to draw attention to the first note -- and playing it louder is just one way. What Rubsam does in 881 isn't singable -- is it cantabile keyboard playing? See what you think.

What I'm investigating is whether you can create the sighing gesture, play cantabile and not use dynamics.

(By the way, when people say that a clavichord doesn't have the range for some of the WTC pieces, what do they mean?)

Re: Range. A clavichord has fewer keys, I think it has maybe a four octave range; whereas a harpsichord has about five octaves, some maybe more; organs have widest ranges but vary; while the modern piano has 88 keys spanning more than ten octaves.

For a long time singing was the only or primary form of making music, and the singing style became the prototype for performance.  The goal was for a musician to imitate the singing style on their instrument as much as possible and there is at least one treatise which discusses how Bach demanded a singing style, which can easily be achieved on string or wind instruments.  It is only on keyboard instruments of Bach's day where producing a singing style is harder to achieve. 

The agogic phrasing is one way I know of to imply a singing style on the harpsichord (there may be others, I am no expert), I wrote "imply" because no one would actually sing the line that way, but it is what a harpsichord can do to distinguish the figure.  I consider it far less obvious or pleasing than having an instrument that can simply execute dynamics much like the human voice.  A piano is nowhere near as facile in this regard as a wind instrument, but at least you can play dynamics.  Vibrato is also a component of a singing style, which a clavichord can do, which might be why it is said that the clavichord was Bach's favorite instrument. However, it is limited in volume production and is only suitable for private playing.  A piano cannot play with vibrato, but is less limited than all the other keyboard instruments.

Rubsam's lute-harpsichord recordings have become almost un-listenable to me, they are too herky-jerky.

[Mandryka]

So why does he say that some of WTC isn't playable on a clavichord? Which bits can't you fit on one?

Do you think that Rübsam's style is not correctly called cantabile?  He talks explicitly about how he wants to make the voices sing - maybe you think he can't walk the walk.

[aukhawk]

while the modern piano has 88 keys spanning more than ten octaves.

88 keys is just over 7 octaves  [/pedant]

[San Antone]

88 keys is just over 7 octaves  [/pedant]

Yep, you're right.   

So why does he say that some of WTC isn't playable on a clavichord? Which bits can't you fit on one?

I am not sure in which pieces, but there are some notes out of its range. 

Do you think that Rübsam's style is not correctly called cantabile?  He talks explicitly about how he wants to make the voices sing - maybe you think he can't walk the walk.

He may indeed be trying to achieve that.  However, the manner that he uses with the exaggerated (IMO) staggering of the counterpoint, while at first I found intriguing, over time began to become tiresome for me.

[Mandryka]

I think it was common practice in the c16 and early c17 to take a keyboard score and adjust it to the instrument at your disposal - the tuning for example, and the number and type of keyboards and pedalboards  etc, we had this come up with AoF recently.

In truth I really doubt that any part of WTC can't fit on a clavichord of the time, I have a couple of recordings of it on clavichord, when I heard Schiff say that I thought I'd misunderstood the idea of range, that's why I asked. Maybe there were some unusually small clavichords, I don't know. I think Schiff was being disingenuous, again. You can see he's got up my nose.

Re Rubsam, he says that his way of staggering counterpoint is taken directly from Italian madrigal style. And I can see what he's getting at, if you listen to some Frescobaldi madrigals for example. And of course, madrigals are sung, so we're back to that . . .

[San Antone]

I think it was common practice in the c16 and early c17 to take a keyboard score and adjust it to the instrument at your disposal - the tuning for example, and the number and type of keyboards and pedalboards  etc, we had this come up with AoF recently.

In truth I really doubt that any part of WTC can't fit on a clavichord of the time, I have a couple of recordings of it on clavichord, when I heard Schiff say that I thought I'd misunderstood the idea of range, that's why I asked. Maybe there were some unusually small clavichords, I don't know. I think Schiff was being disingenuous, again. You can see he's got up my nose.

Just because you've heard recordings of the WTC played on a clavichord does not mean that "as written" every note was within its range.  A musician could just move the note up an octave if it were too low, or vice verse if too high.  Again, I don't know which pieces would not work "as written" on a normal clavichord.  Schiff said he had one in his home in Florence and loved playing it.  I don't understand your antipathy toward him; I sincerely doubt he is being disingenuous.

It could be you just prefer hearing Bach played on a harpsichord, I don't know.  For myself, I enjoy Bach on any instrument.  When I was in music school I studied the marimba and played some of the WTC with four mallets.  My teacher was somewhat obsessive about his students learning this rather difficult exercise.  But it sounded wonderful to me then, and still does.

Re Rubsam, he says that his way of staggering counterpoint is taken directly from Italian madrigal style. And I can see what he's getting at, if you listen to some Frescobaldi madrigals for example. And of course, madrigals are sung, so we're back to that . . .

I believe him; but that changes nothing about the way it sounds to me.   

[Mandryka]

.

It could be you just prefer hearing Bach played on a harpsichord, I don't know.  For myself, I enjoy Bach on any instrument.  When I was in music school I studied the marimba and played some of the WTC with four mallets.  My teacher was somewhat obsessive about his students learning this rather difficult exercise.  But it sounded wonderful to me then, and still does. . . I believe him; but that changes nothing about the way it sounds to me.   

I'm trying to keep my preferences out of it, anyway they change with the wind. And really they're irrelevant and a private thing - I don't care what you like, why should you care what i like? Keep it to yourself! If I ever expressed a preference or a distaste then it was a lapse of my normal good judgement and modesty. Anyway re Schiff I think you're being a bit gullible to be honest, but I await to be proved wrong.

[San Antone]

I'm trying to keep my preferences out of it, anyway they change with the wind. And really they're irrelevant and a private thing - I don't care what you like, why should you care what i like? Keep it to yourself! If I ever expressed a preference or a distaste then it was a lapse of my normal good judgement and modesty. Anyway re Schiff I think you're being a bit gullible to be honest, but I await to be proved wrong.

I am curious, and you need not answer if you don't like my question, but do you play the piano or any instrument?  The reason why I ask is because it strikes me as if you are coming to this issue in an abstract manner unrelated to the experience of playing the music.

I do not have discussions about music outside of the context of what I enjoy to hear.  I consider all questions about music to be subjective and I am not interested in a "philosophical" discussion about it.

[Mandryka]

Oh there are some composers I don't enjoy much, but for some reason I've spend time trying to come to terms with them, I don't know why, I guess they must have exerted some subliminal magnetic pull,  and so I'm interested to discuss them. Beethoven is an example, and Shostakovich.  But you're not going to see me get into any conversations about, I dunno, Rachmaninov or Liszt.

I played piano to quite a reasonable standard when I was a kid, and to a lesser extent guitar, I gave it all up, I didn't enjoy it. Too hard!

What's your instrument?

[San Antone]

Oh there are some composers I don't enjoy much, but for some reason I've spend time trying to come to terms with them, I don't know why, I guess they must have exerted some subliminal magnetic pull,  and so I'm interested to discuss them. Beethoven is an example, and Shostakovich.  But you're not going to see me get into any conversations about, I dunno, Rachmaninov or Liszt.

I played piano to quite a reasonable standard when I was a kid, and to a lesser extent guitar, I gave it all up, I didn't enjoy it. Too hard!

What's your instrument?

I started out on guitar, then studied piano for years and got pretty good in classical (I've played a lot of Bach, and loved it).  But my primary background has been in jazz, as a bassist.  I played professionally for 15-20 years and then got interested in songwriting.  Which I  have done as for the last 30 years.  I've played several string instruments, and as I said studied percussion in music school, but about all I play these days are guitar and banjo.

Although my music degree is in Theory and Composition, the most important things I've learned were from playing with other musicians and in a non-reading environment.

[milk]

Schiff was focusing on one figure in one prelude, an appoggiatura, which is sometimes referred to as a "sighing" figure.  Almost always an appoggiatura is sung with the emphasis on the first note and then a softening on the resolution.  It is pretty straight-forward and I doubt you will find any musician who would disagree.  The only time this figure is not played in this manner is if you are playing an instrument which cannot execute dynamics, e.g. an harpsichord. 

"Unmusical" is Schiff's characterization for someone to sing an appoggiatura contrary to this "sighing" phrasing.  His word, maybe a bit harsh, but which I can understand.

Your problem with Chopin and the piano's dynamic potential might be related to a specific performer's interpretation, or recordings which are not engineered very well, or any number of reasons.  Chopin wrote his works specifically to exploit the capabilities of the piano.  Bach wrote for the keyboard instruments of his time, but in almost every work there are things which either difficult or impossible to play, which leads me to think that Bach was thinking outside the box of his time.  He might have thought of his compositions abstractly, i.e. hearing them ideally in his head in a manner which he knew could not be realized with the instruments at hand.

I don't know.  But what cannot be ignored is that concerning the preludes and fugues in The Well-Tempered Clavier, Schiff is correct in saying that there is no single instrument from Bach's time which can execute all of the music in every one of the preludes and fugues in an ideal manner, or even at all in some cases.  Some instruments do not have the range, some cannot execute dynamics and some cannot sustain a note long enough. The piano comes closest, but even it cannot sustain a note long enough without the aid of the pedal (which Schiff uses, but does not like it since it clouds the counterpoint).

yes it's just personal taste that the temptation to use the dynamics of the piano in the genre of that time wears  on me.
Unrelated:
@Mandryka sample Takehisa's 881 some time if you can find it. It's weird and beautiful. He does use the dynamics of the fortepiano, but always in a way that surprises me.
I really need to listen more carefully. I like Schiff and and as far as I can tell, he does it pretty subtly on his last recording. I'm not hearing dynamics in this prelude on. Vieru, Crossland, Woodward or maybe it's just very subtle.

[Mandryka]

@Mandryka sample Takehisa's 881 some time if you can find it. It's weird and beautiful. He does use the dynamics of the fortepiano, but always in a way that surprises me.
I really need to listen more carefully. I like Schiff and and as far as I can tell, he does it pretty subtly on his last recording. I'm not hearing dynamics in this prelude on. Vieru, Crossland, Woodward or maybe it's just very subtle.

Impossible to find the Takehisa. If you can't hear the dynamic changes in Vieru, Crossland etc, it may as well not be there! In the Woodward if indeed there is dynamic emphasis there it's pointless as he trills the first note.

[Mandryka]

The piano comes closest,

No, that's not true,  we've already seen that the range issue may well be a red herring, I'll maybe investigate the range required for WTC and the normal compass of a clavichords and harpsichords, later. Furthermore  the piano does not have the requisite brilliance, some of the pieces benefit from that. The G major Book 1 for example.

This leaves sustain. Can you provide some examples please?