Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

[MusicTurner]

Fischer's is probably among the most sketchy of piano versions; I culled it, not wanting a really large collection of that work, and finding it too sketchy, though others may appreciate some details there.

[prémont]

I love the sound of Egarr's instrument.  But I don't hear what you describe, i.e. "he's broken it up into short phrases."  What I hear is a deliberate rubato basically in line with the musical phraseology as Bach wrote it.  However, his deliberate rubato begins to sound somewhat turgid after 3.5 minutes.

Egarr's retoric rubato is intimately coordinated with his articulation, so much that one has to listen very close to perceive it.

[Mandryka]

Thanks for getting involved in this interesting question San Antone.

I think that there is more than one way of articulating what Bach wrote, and I also think that Fischer hears longer phrases in the music than Egarr. There are more notes in each "bow stroke" as it were.  Both seem to me prima facie valid approaches, the question I have is this: why did the Amsterdam HIP discourse tend to favour the short phrase view?

My suggestion is that it's just bad logic. Let's grant for the moment that some baroque music has the large scale structure of a Quintilian type well made speech. It doesn't follow that all baroque music, or indeed any baroque music, has the microstructure of spoken rather than sung language.

[prémont]

Thanks for getting involved in this interesting question San Antone.

I think that there is more than one way of articulating what Bach wrote, and I also think that Fischer hears longer phrases in the music than Egarr. Both seem to me valid approaches, the question I have is this: why did the Amsterdam HIP discourse tend to favour the short phrase view?

My suggestion is that it's just bad logic. Let's grant for the moment that some baroque music has the large scale structure of a Quintilian type well made speech. It doesn't follow that all baroque music, or indeed any baroque music, has the microstructure of spoken rather than sung language.

But the microstructure of sung language doesn't differ that much from spoken languge. Consonants - even sung - are always articulated separately, and vowels may involve one, two or three and seldom four notes (excepted is of course vocalizing but this is rare) which are tied together like in standard HIP articulation.

[Mandryka]

But the microstructure of sung language doesn't differ that much from spoken languge. Consonants - even sung - are always articulated separately, and vowels may involve one, two or three and seldom four notes (excepted is of course vocalizing but this is rare) which are tied together like in standard HIP articulation.

Ah now, what is cantabile? Is it just a question of liaison between notes? Or is it a question of phrasing?

Allermeisten aber eine cantable Art im Spielen zu erlangen.

[prémont]

Ah now, what is cantabile? Is it just a question of liaison between notes? Or is it a question of phrasing?

Allermeisten aber eine cantable Art im Spielen zu erlangen.

"Cantabile" includes both articulation and phrasing.

Articulation is the touch and how long you make the notes, how you tie them and how you accent them (if accenting is possible).

Phrasing is a more general concept eg. how you connect the words in a verse line.

When Bach in the preface to the Inventions writes "cantabile" I think he meant "like song" and not "like speach", so Harnoncourt's "like speach" seems far over the point. I think Leonhardt got it better as displayed by his recordings of the inventions and Bach's keyboard music in general.

[Mandryka]

Will think about it tomorrow - I'm enjoying Egarr too much now. Listen to this amazing fugue!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym7cL5sznrE

[San Antone]

When Bach in the preface to the Inventions writes "cantabile" I think he meant "like song" and not "like speach",

I believe it was CPE Bach who wrote that his father thought that his music should be played cantabile, or with a quality of singing, vocalistic, as much as possible.  But considering the limitations of the harpsichord's ability to play dynamics, this has always caused confusion on my part.

Legato, instead of staccato, would make sense, as well as connecting the phrases as if sung - but some other manner would need to be used in place of a purely vocalistic use of dynamics.

[prémont]

I believe it was CPE Bach who wrote that his father thought that his music should be played cantabile, or with a quality of singing, vocalistic, as much as possible.  But considering the limitations of the harpsichord's ability to play dynamics, this has always caused confusion on my part.

Legato, instead of staccato, would make sense, as well as connecting the phrases as if sung - but some other manner would need to be used in place of a purely vocalistic use of dynamics.

As I argued above "cantabile" doesn't mean ""legato" but "like song". We don't sing in long stretches of legato because each consonant is articulated, which means that it's preceded by a micro-pause like when you tongue notes on a wind instrument or change the direction of the stroke on a bowed string instrument. A harpsichord is very capable of imitating this, and this touch was probably standard harpsichord-touch in the late baroque, spoken about as  "ordentlisches Fortgehen".

[San Antone]

As I argued above "cantabile" doesn't mean ""legato" but "like song". We don't sing in long stretches of legato because each consonant is articulated, which means that it's preceded by a micro-pause like when you tongue notes on a wind instrument or change the direction of the stroke on a bowed string instrument. A harpsichord is very capable of imitating this, and this touch was probably standard harpsichord-touch in the late baroque, spoken about as  "ordentlisches Fortgehen".

However, singing is often legato, and melismatic when several notes will occur under one syllable.  You also did not address one point of confusion over Bach's use of the term cantabile and a harpsichord's inability to fully mimic singing because of its lack of dynamics.  Singing is breath powered and as such employs infinite gradations of volume and dynamics.

I believe that Bach was alluding to a quality of playing his music which would be against a dry, pedantic or static quality.  He wished to emphasize a cantabile quality, as much as possible - however a harpsichordist could achieve that manner of playing.

[milk]

Thanks for getting involved in this interesting question San Antone.

I think that there is more than one way of articulating what Bach wrote, and I also think that Fischer hears longer phrases in the music than Egarr. There are more notes in each "bow stroke" as it were.  Both seem to me prima facie valid approaches, the question I have is this: why did the Amsterdam HIP discourse tend to favour the short phrase view?

My suggestion is that it's just bad logic. Let's grant for the moment that some baroque music has the large scale structure of a Quintilian type well made speech. It doesn't follow that all baroque music, or indeed any baroque music, has the microstructure of spoken rather than sung language.

Who else breaks it up like that? I hear a lot of interesting approaches, interesting for different reasons - especially on harpsichord. Dantone is half way there I guess. It seems like a lot of artist do play this prelude as a lightening bolt from god or a shock of the apocalypse. That's on the pluck. It doesn't seem like the hammered thing, piano, can do that. Even Schafer plays much longer lines, if I'm understanding what these technical terms mean and maybe not. Phrases? I'm getting to like Schafer more. But Egarr seems to me an extreme case to point to. * strangely, Feinberg and Hill seem to my ears to have something in common. I don't know what it is.

[prémont]

However, singing is often legato, and melismatic when several notes will occur under one syllable.

In Bach's sacred music the most common occurrence is one syllable pr note. Sometimes there are two or a few more notes pr syllable, and then the notes should of course be tied - articulated legato. There are many parallels in his instrumental music to this, when he puts a tie over a few (usually two to four) notes. Long melismatic episodes with several notes on one syllable are less frequent and mostly work as a kind of ornamentation.

You also did not address one point of confusion over Bach's use of the term cantabile and a harpsichord's inability to fully mimic singing because of its lack of dynamics.  Singing is breath powered and as such employs infinite gradations of volume and dynamics.

There is no confusion here, since the harpsichord's ability to grade dynamics is limited, and for that reason Bach of course didn't include dynamic variation in his concept of cantabile when it's about harpsichord music. To some extent dynamic variation is possible on a clavichord and the concept cantabile for this instrument therefore includes some dynamic variation but of course not the monstrous dynamic variation a modern piano is capable of.

[prémont]

Even Schafer plays much longer lines, if I'm understanding what these technical terms mean and maybe not. Phrases?

Yes, I suppose you mean phrases.

I haven't heard Feinberg, but is the common denominator of Hill and Feinberg their detailed working out of the individual voices?

[Mandryka]

Opinions please, gentlemen, about Landowska's.

[milk]

Opinions please, gentlemen, about Landowska's.

Surprisingly weird.

[prémont]

Surprisingly weird.

+1

A period instrument and modern recorded sound might on the other hand have made miracles, at least relatively - we don't know.

[Mandryka]

Some of it is indeed very strange at the level of interpretation.  Her other recordings of baroque music sound much more conventional.

Someone said to me yesterday that she only recorded one prelude or fugue a week, not in order, but according to some plan of her own making. Some of them were studio recordings, some made in her home.

For what it's worth, in 1959 she recorded some Haydn on piano, and that sounds also weird. But the notes she made for the LP show, I would say, independence, intelligence and sensitivity, a genuine interest in the music and in performing the music authentically. What I'm saying is, she hadn't gone gaga.

+1

A period instrument and modern recorded sound might on the other hand have made miracles, at least relatively - we don't know.

I think even on a Ruckers it would sound weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

She must have been aware of what Edwin Fischer and Walter Gieseking had made of it, so it was her considered decision to go a very different way.

[prémont]

I think even on a Ruckers it would sound weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

Do you mean the long legato lines?

Have you heard the WTC recording by Malcolm Hamilton (Everest 1960es)? Played on a large Wittmeyer harpsichord with 16' and as to interpretation heavily inspired by Landowska's approach. Yes, with the ears of today it sounds a bit weird, but not that weird - maybe reminding a bit of Watchorn (have not made a direct comparison, though).

[Mandryka]

Do you mean the long legato lines?

Have you heard the WTC recording by Malcolm Hamilton (Everest 1960es)? Played on a large Wittmeyer harpsichord with 16' and as to interpretation heavily inspired by Landowska's approach. Yes, with the ears of today it sounds a bit weird, but not that weird - maybe reminding a bit of Watchorn (have not made a direct comparison, though).

I think the thing I find most disconcerting is the way she changes speed, it feels very unnatural to me, but it could be a question of habituation. You can hear an example about a minute in to the 870 prelude, and then at about 2;26.  I will listen to the Hamilton on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

[prémont]

I think the thing I find most disconcerting is the way she changes speed, it feels very unnatural to me, but it could be a question of habituation. You can hear an example about a minute in to the 870 prelude, and then at about 2;26.  I will listen to the Hamilton on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

It's only a short-lasting rubato, and she resumes the original pace shortly afterwards.
But I agree with you that it seems unnatural.