Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

[Leo K.]

I must have listened to Ashkenazy's WTC a few dozen times, always going back and forth as to what I think of it (ranging from OK to Good).  Ultimately, I don't feel he offers enough angst or power when I want those qualities.

I think I hear what you mean there, more of a surface play rather than drama. I like Ashkenazy's articulation too. Very pointed and direct in the faster preludes and fugues.

[Leo K.]

Wow, I've heard Tureck's BBC Legends WTC book II before, but hearing it again I am absolutely bowled over. The power of it!!!

[San Antone]

Is it known whether Bach envisioned the WTC to be played start to finish in one performance?  My guess is, no he thought of these are teaching pieces not one long work.

But I haven't studied this idea, so I don't know.

Thread duty:

[Mandryka]

Is it known whether Bach envisioned the WTC to be played start to finish in one performance?  My guess is, no he thought of these are teaching pieces not one long work.

There's a document by Ernst Ludwig Gerber about his son Heinrich, who was one of Bach's pupils.  In it he says that JS  Bach played  WTC "altogether" three times. At least that's the translation in The New Bach Reader!

[milk]

There's a document by Ernst Ludwig Gerber about his son Heinrich, who was one of Bach's pupils.  In it he says that JS  Bach played  WTC "altogether" three times. At least that's the translation in The New Bach Reader!

You have seen this video on Moroney's WTC "marathon" back in 2009?

http://www.youtube.com/v/3q-ksemmGbc

[San Antone]

There's a document by Ernst Ludwig Gerber about his son Heinrich, who was one of Bach's pupils.  In it he says that JS  Bach played  WTC "altogether" three times. At least that's the translation in The New Bach Reader!

Most interesting, thanks. 

[Opus106]

Reposting it here to get more eyes on it.

Does anyone know if both books are included in this set? If it's the whole thing, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the recordings, if you have listened to it.

[asin]B0000007JW[/asin]

(no 'official' cover picture available at Amazon)
Davitt Moroney
Well-Tempered Clavier
Harmonia Mundi

[Mandryka]

Most interesting, thanks. 

What he says is: "[The Well Tempered Clavier] Bach played altogether three times through for him with unmatchable art, and my father counted these among his happiest hours, when Bach, under the pretext of not feeling in the mood to teach, sat himself at one of his fine instruments, and thus turned these hours into minutes"

I'd never read that before today. Amazing!

[San Antone]

What he says is: "[The Well Tempered Clavier] Bach played altogether three times through for him with unmatchable art, and my father counted these among his happiest hours, when Bach, under the pretext of not feeling in the mood to teach, sat himself at one of his fine instruments, and thus turned these hours into minutes"

I'd never read that before today. Amazing!

Not to quibble, but that is still not evidence if Bach thought of the WTC as one long work suitable for public performance as such.  I've always thought of a keyboard program including one or two P&Fs and a mix of other pieces for variety.  And while recordings are commonly done today of Books I & II or one or the other, complete, I was wondering when that practice came about - or if Bach (other than in the manner you found) indicated his thinking.

[kishnevi]

What he says is: "[The Well Tempered Clavier] Bach played altogether three times through for him with unmatchable art, and my father counted these among his happiest hours, when Bach, under the pretext of not feeling in the mood to teach, sat himself at one of his fine instruments, and thus turned these hours into minutes"

I'd never read that before today. Amazing!

It's not safe to depend on a translation, but I might point out that "played altogether three times through" does not necessarily imply that JSB played the complete WTC complete in one sitting at three different times.  It might also mean that JSB would play several P&Fs in a row for Heinrich, and over the period of Heinrich's pupilage, he heard each of the 48 played at least three times by JSB.

Perhaps someone has access to the original German, and can check to see if the ambiguity presented by the translation is also present in the original.

[Mandryka]

I agree with both the points above.

Is there any  shared musical material, themes transformed, that sort of thing?

I just tried to check whether Busoni played a complete book in a recital, and as far as I can see the answer is no. I wonder if Edwin Fischer or Wanda Landowska  or Walcha did. Fischer's recording was the first complete one.

[prémont]

Reposting it here to get more eyes on it.

This may tell the answer: it is one CD with extracts from Book I:
Descriptions du produit
Book 1 Preludes & Fugues Nos. 1-3, 6-9, 12, 16, 19-22, 24.
http://www.amazon.fr/Clavier-Bien-Temp%C3%A9r%C3%A9-Bach/dp/B0000007JW/ref=sr_1_22?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371662845&sr=1-22&keywords=bach+moroney

[Opus106]

This may tell the answer: it is one CD with extracts from Book I:
Descriptions du produit
Book 1 Preludes & Fugues Nos. 1-3, 6-9, 12, 16, 19-22, 24.
http://www.amazon.fr/Clavier-Bien-Temp%C3%A9r%C3%A9-Bach/dp/B0000007JW/ref=sr_1_22?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371662845&sr=1-22&keywords=bach+moroney

Thank you for that.

[prémont]

Thank you for that.

Always at your service.

I shall add that Moroney´s WTC IMO is a top choice. Scholary, maybe a bit strict, but it is pure music and immensely rewarding. I have never heard a recording of his which disappointed me.

[prémont]

I think Bach considered the WTC a collection and not a cyclical work meant to be performed at one sitting.

Other collections (evidently authorized by Bach) are the harpsichord partitas, the Leipzig chorales, the six triosonatas for organ, the Brandenburg concertos, the seven concertos for one harpsichord and strings and the six cello suites.

Were they meant to be performed at one sitting?

[Opus106]

I shall add that Moroney´s WTC IMO is a top choice. Scholary, maybe a bit strict, but it is pure music and immensely rewarding. I have never heard a recording of his which disappointed me.

That is good to know.

[Mandryka]

http://youtube.com/v/cmf2hoSRtuQ

I think the fugue here, played by Legacé, is wonderful, revelatory because it's so intense and energetic and because of the way it builds up power. The prelude is maybe less interesting.

My question is, is there enough in Lagacé's set to make it worth buying? It's in four CDs, sold seperately by download - maybe some are better than others. It's quite expensive so I'm reluctant to take a punt, even though I very much appreciate this fugue.

As far as I can see there's nothing else from his WTC on youtube.

Why is it that so many performances play this fugue slowly?

[Sammy]

http://youtube.com/v/cmf2hoSRtuQ

I think the fugue here, played by Legacé, is wonderful, revelatory because it's so intense and energetic and because of the way it builds up power. The prelude is maybe less interesting.

My question is, is there enough in Lagacé's set to make it worth buying? It's in four CDs, sold seperately by download - maybe some are better than others. It's quite expensive so I'm reluctant to take a punt, even though I very much appreciate this fugue.

As far as I can see there's nothing else from his WTC on youtube.

Why is it that so many performances play this fugue slowly?

That's sort of a loaded question.  Does Legace play it fast?  There are a few recorded performances I know of in the 6 minute range; Legace takes about 7 minutes.  Personally, I prefer a tempo for this very bleak music of about 8 minutes (such as Watchorn's).  Legace's performance just bounces off of me; same with his Prelude.

[Mandryka]

Lots of people play the 869 fugue bleakly, like you see it,  but not everyone does. (This reminds me of a discussion we once had about Nikolayeva and Mustonen in Shostakovich, though I wouldn't want to say now what I said then. There are lots of ways to play a piece of music.)

[North Star]

Out of the 170(almost) recordings in WTC's 85 years old history, the choices for the musically sane should simply be among:
Harpsichord: Gilbert, Moroney, Jaccottet, Leonhardt
Piano: Hewitt, Schiff, Richter
Clavichord: Kirkpatrick
Organ: Lagace

Call me insane but I like Bob van Asperen's recording (that Sviatoslav Richter on RCA is excellent, though), Annie.